First track day in my car coming up

rustomatic said:

Congrats on having fun--Sonoma is a great track.  What's funny is that so many guys/girls who regularly do all of the NorCal tracks usually hold Sonoma as the favorite, not Laguna Seca; I definitely concur.  Anyhoo . . .

The idea of adding stiffness rather than grip is weird.  This is something that autocross could effectively demonstrate the opposite of, as some of the best handling cars (watch a new Corvette autocross) in the world offer great articulation and a bit of roll, but tons of grip.  It took me about 30 years to appreciate this, but it's definitely a thing.  One can have a nice ride and amazing abilities.  Even pro drifters want grip.

I've climbed in more than one students car and after a couple fo corners asked "why is this thing so stiff?" While stiff gives instantaneous feedback it often comes at the cost of overall grip.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Honestly. I think a stiff lower grip setup is better than a soft high grip setup for a student.
When you're new it is a lot harder to control a car that sways and sloshes all over the place.
but a properly stiff chassis is super predictable and easy to control.

Might have less overall grip, but it's a lot less scary at the limit because you're sitting flat not half way on your side!

BoxheadTim said:

Confidence - not overconfidence - is the main cause of good lap times. Car is probably a distant second.

But the car feeds into the confidence.  Adding aero to my M3 made me 3 seconds a lap faster at Laguna -- probably half of that came from actually improving the grip, the other half from giving me the confidence to use more of the grip that the car had in the first place.

Sonoma is an awesome track, congrats!

In reply to Tadope :

Naturally it varies from person to person but an overly stiff car is a false economy. 

The car may feel more predictable but it only seems more becuase it slides so early. The downside to this is its very easy to fall into the trap of over driving the car trying to keep up with cars with more grip as you progress.

For me a better approach is to set up the balance to be more user friendly at the limit.

A few years ago I had a student in a near stock E36 M3 that car was super predictable on the limit and also fairly soft.

Where I find students falling into the trap of an overly stiff set up is drivers who come off the brakes to soon and to abruptly. To copensate they car set up with steady state oversteer. Steady state oversteer is difficult to manage for 90% of drivers, so that early breakaway that seems predictable is a blind alley. 

I'm also not a fan of learning styles and or set ups that you are going to have to unlearn later. I'm one of the few instructors I know that teaches trail braking from the outset.

My opinion naturally but a better approach would be to go with a softer set up that rotates with a moderate amount of trail braking and has slight throttle on understeer. As a driver gets more proficient they can start adjusting the car to make it rotate more rapidly. By that point the driver will have the ability to make adjustments in braking and throttle inputs to adjust the cars trajectory.

In reply to Tadope :

Take a soft car and a stiff car onto a skid pad and get back to me about the confidence. 

Being able to feel what the chassis is doing is a good thing and allows you to corrective measures as the limits are met or exceeded. An overly stiff chassis will bite you in the ass when the limits are exceeded, as by the time you start to give corrective input, it's already too far gone. 

Maybe its better to stiffen all my linkages and the body/chassis itself.

i can always do springrate at a later time.

also i plan on keeping stock swaybars, as the tt community recommends that.

Improving bushings is always a good thing. I wouldn't hesitate to play with sway bars, removing the front and stiffening the rear can do fun things. 

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

Only thing is that one of the biggest problems I noticed about the car was the slosh in the front end.

A lot of tt guys recommend removing the front bar but I definitely don't think that's a good idea at this point.

I need to pull weight from the front is the main issue.  The engine has an iron block. I think that really screws weight dist

Removing the front sway won't negatively affect the slosh, replacing the bushings and getting some negative camber up front will help with that though. Once you get the steering feel more crisp, then you can stop experimenting with trail braking to negate some of that front end weight bias. But you need to have feel of what the front end is doing and where it is going first. 

Tadope said:

I need to pull weight from the front is the main issue.  The engine has an iron block. I think that really screws weight dist

The TT is fundamentally designed as a FWD chassis, it is always going to have excess weight on the front wheels.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Tadope said:

I need to pull weight from the front is the main issue.  The engine has an iron block. I think that really screws weight dist

The TT is fundamentally designed as a FWD chassis, it is always going to have excess weight on the front wheels.

That, and the VW four is lighter than most all aluminum engines.  It is tiiiny.

The transmission probably weighs 50-60% what the engine does, unless it is a DSG, in which case it weighs as much as the engine does...

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Sorry but have you actually checked and compared weights?  It's a small motor. But compared to Honda engines, I'm that iron is doing no good.  

I do have a 6spd however. That's probably adding weight

Just finished my 4th track day.

gotta admit this stuff is so much fun!!!

Things I noticed. 

#1   a reliable car is 10000x better than a fast one.   never try to install untested gofast parts days before your track event.

#2   my car is too damn squishy.  i'm flopping around all over the place!

#3   it's so much easier than it looks.   If your car is working right, you can really just go at your own pace.  the biggest fear is that you will be out there in the danger zone going a million miles an hour.  But actually theres nothing wrong with a mellow pace in the beginner run group.

#4 cheap parts aren't that bad.  my 5 year old and cracked rubber no name china brand tires perform adequately well!  Even my maxpeedingrods front coils work "well enough" even with the front right shock leaking oil.   I can only imagine how amazing GOOD parts can be!!!

#5 there are good deals out there.  trackday newsletters send so many deals and savings.  I just had a full day track event for 99$   amazing!

In reply to Tadope :

All pretty valid observations; for a person new to the track #1 really is the number one thing.

As for the car being squishy; well that really puts the emphasis on smooth inputs. As you get faster you'll eventually change the set up but for now just keep driving and having fun.

In reply to Tom1200 :

you are SO right. my steering control has to be super smooth.
I actually find that a bit annoying.  makes driving on the limit a bit scarier than it needs to be.

I have to imagine that #2 and #4 are at least loosely related.

Driving smooth is paramount, and this is also where really good dampers shine: smoothness is part driver input and part suspension reaction.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

yep. my front dampers are E36 M3e

Got some pics of my last event at thunderhill east, reverse setup. (clockwise w/ bypass).
tons of fun.

pics at my instagram @trackmk1tt

https://www.instagram.com/trackmk1tt/

In reply to Tadope :

The car looks great.

Aw man, I typically cruise GRM at work, and they have social media (as well as radio stations and MANY other things) blocked. I'll try to come back later and see the pics

Tadope said:

#4 cheap parts aren't that bad.  my 5 year old and cracked rubber no name china brand tires perform adequately well! 

If you change only one thing, change this.  Not just for performance but for your safety and the safety of the people on the track with you.

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Yes!  I got some re11 255's mounted on lightweight rims.   Just waiting for these to wear out. 

Honestly they been surprisingly good. Very safe and stable at the track. 3 track days so far no problems. Performance is nothing amazing tho. 

Accelera tire