Don't know if this idea was mentioned before: To get a scoring run you have to work each course station. You start at one for a run, then move to the next. The worker marshal signs off on it when you complete all the stations and your run time gets added to the competition. Want another run? Work the course again. New folks work the course first to see how it's done. Skilled folks watch the new folks to offer guidance. I am sure there are some bugs to work out, but that seems fair to me.
Your idea works well. We also break into run groups so that one group marshalls while one group runs. Its great to work on the course and see other lines etc.
In reply to JoeyM:
I agree. In my region (NEPA) we have only a few national competitors who regularly attend our events. That may be because our lots are on the small side and maybe because we do have a laid back atmosphere. However, our events are generally very well attended (for a small region) because of our laid back atmosphere, friendly organizers and competitors and we usually get at least six runs. Run groups are created for ease organization and cars in the same class may be running different heats, but everyone is cool with that. Heck, it is a fun event.
We have a tradition of helping new drivers and even our fellow class competitors. When I snapped my Neon's axle last year, my the driver with whom I was competing for the class champion offered me a seat in his car. You can't beat that.
Shameless plug: We have an event tomorrow (6/27) at the Wyoming Valley Mall in Wilkes-Barre. All registration is walk-up and all are welcome.
In reply to lateapexer:
This is what we do in NEPA.
NYG95GA wrote: Autocross at the regional level is all about volunteers. There is no profit to be had, so it relies on die-hard devotees of the sport. The more folks that show up early and set cones, the earlier the fun can begin. The earlier it starts, the more runs you can work into a day. The politics of the club is about like any other club. Some regions are more anally retentive than others. Smaller groups are much more relaxed. Who knew that on *this* of all forums, there would be such response to an autocross thread?
AMEN!
In reply to novaderrik:
Don't just watch. Eyes outside the car can be very deceiving. What is going on inside the car is VERY different. At least go for a ride with a competitor. I often take passengers (sometimes helps to balance the car). I would suggest using autocross to help better learn the handling limits of your car before doing a track day. Autocross will push your car to its handling limit better than most track days and if you screw up in autocross the only casualties are a few cones.
In reply to steverife:
We usually get between 30 and 50 cars at our events, which is not too bad for a small region. Participants are encouraged to help set up and even assist in designing the course. Participants are also tasked with picking up the course and packing the club truck, before trophies are given out (we usually give a kind of drinking vessel). We are usually off site by no later than 4:30.
Basically, most of the things that steer operations come down to a basic decision that has to be made both by the entrant and the club. Which is more important - competition or simplicity. Unfortunately, these seem kind of diametrically opposed, and thus an event that does one well, seems to do the other poorly.
For some folks (I'm one of them) the draw is the competition. I could go to other clubs who have more runs, or shorter events, or less work, etc., but if they don't scratch the competitive itch, then I just don't care. OTOH, there are folks who just want to get out there and slide their car around and don't care about competition. Those folks have a different set of requirements for an event.
If I'm concerned with competition, I want an event that has a lot of people (so that there is a better chance of the fast guys showing up), relatively few runs (the point of autox is the ability to get it done in 3, plus, it costs about $30-$40 per run to operate my car), a defined class structure with classes that run at the same time (I don't want to win / lose based on weather, course condition, etc. - I want to race against the best people I can, under the same conditions).
I've done "fun" events, and while I do enjoy the more laid back atmosphere, they just didn't scratch the itch for me. If I am the fast car there by several seconds, then I haven't competed, I've just wasted $200 worth of tires.
Moparman wrote: In reply to novaderrik: I would suggest using autocross to help better learn the handling limits of your car before doing a track day. Autocross will push your car to its handling limit better than most track days and if you screw up in autocross the only casualties are a few cones.
I don't know about that. Getting 4 or 5 sub min runs on a super tight course isn't really going to help too much. Most tracks don't have a lot of turns as tight and as slow as a typical autocross course. If you were able to run the course over and over and experiment to what is causing the problems (both can and driver), that would be different.
I don't see it important to try to talk someone into autocrossing if they already think it's not for them for whatever reason. If you KNOW you won't like it, you are right before even trying. The odds of you really enjoying it vs. the odds of you bitching about it are event, and I'd much rather not have to put up with you.
I see Dave's point about competition, and that's why there are always options. I prefer the smaller events, mainly because in my region, even the class I run in is small. And since there are enough great drivers who do our events, I have a good measure.
Again, there are many, many ways to run an autocross. All of them are both right in some aspects and wrong in others. But before you think there's a reason why an event is run the way it is- you'd be better off finding out the real reason (for instance, SCCA's reason to run the classes together has nothing to do with the computer). While I don't personally enjoy SCCA's events, I'm not going to say that they are wrong (as much as some of their local members say that we are)- nobody is wrong- it's just what each club values as important.
Oh, one of the main reasons that we don't require each driver to work- it's a MAJOR PITA to find every driver all the time. I just don't want to deal with PITA compeitors, I'd much rather accept the help from the honestly happy people. Still hard, but most of what our club does is to make it easy for the 6-10 of us who are club members running the event.
So, on that note- if you REALLY want something different- step up and do it. If you bitch, moan, and complain, and then not be willing to sit in my seat or stand in my shoes- then I'm not willing to really listen to you. And if your club isn't willing to take your help, either try harder or find another club.
SCCA events CAN be run like small local events, and clubs like AROC can run like an SCCA regional. It's all a matter of who is running the event. And before you tell me "yea, that's great for 50 driver, but try 150-200" again- then HAVE SMALLER EVENTS. Nobody is putting a gun to your head to host 200 drivers.
My honest goal- keep all those who like our events happy, and piss off the people who don't. That will keep the people who tend to be a PITA away, and the honest fun people to be around will always come back. May seem harsh, but I do this for fun, and would rather not put up with people who don't.
Eric
As long as you have the serious-competitive type and the laid-back fun type you will have difficulties. In our local club I think the understanding that we have is that we are not going to get you ready for national or even regional level competition. You're going to learn car control, do it in a way that most authorities are okay with, and have a good time. The more serious members of the club head to larger facilities and organizations to get that buzz. I agree that $30-40 or more for an a-x is a lot for the seat time and that's why I supplement with track days. But with the cost of insurance and lot rental fees, etc. things add. No club gets it right 100% of the time. Hell , even the best lap isn't always a "perfect" lap." You do what you can to please the most people. Still I think the overriding factor contributing to success is doing things on time, when you say you are going. Nobody likes standing around waiting for you to get your E36 M3 together!
i like that from whoever said they see autox as turns per $$$ rather than minutes of seat time.
boston chapter bmw cca is a very well run event. usually 100-110 drivers, split into 2 groups, one works one drives, and its held on an airforce base, so it uses intersecting runways and the paddock between them to make a pretty long, diverse 90 second course with tight technical sections, multiple slaloms, big sweepers, etc. and even with a lot of drivers its run very efficiently so we get 4 morning runs and 4 afternoon runs.
do i like the working the course part? not so much, but its not too bad getting 8 long runs for it, and if they had to supply workers it'd cost more. ive had to work a corner once on a HPDE which was far more boring as you really arent needed ever unless its bad and i still paid almost $200 for that day.
in fact, our events typically fill up in less than 12 hours after preregistration opens, and it opens a month before the event...
is handing out trophies at the end of an event a common thing? ive never heard of that.
DILYSI Dave wrote: Basically, most of the things that steer operations come down to a basic decision that has to be made both by the entrant and the club. Which is more important - competition or simplicity. Unfortunately, these seem kind of diametrically opposed, and thus an event that does one well, seems to do the other poorly.
Yes, I agree 100% with this assessment.
DILYSI Dave wrote: OTOH, there are folks who just want to get out there and slide their car around and don't care about competition. Those folks have a different set of requirements for an event.
You just described me; I'm the polar opposite of you....It's nice if I beat someone, but that's not common, and I don't really care. I'll never be able to get really good at autocross because I don't attend enough events to get the seat time, and I won't spend the money to get a highly competetive car with the latest tires. I love playing with my cars, and that's what I'm doing when I'm at an event.
DILYSI Dave wrote: relatively few runs (the point of autox is the ability to get it done in 3,
This is one thing you and I have in common. Neither of us is trying to get more runs at local events. The motivation is different for me, though.....I just don't want my fun weekend to turn into something that resembles hard work.
Wow, look at this non-post-whore methodology for replying to two people. Now I can feel guilt-free when I post to the hotlinking thread.
Rusnak_322 wrote:Moparman wrote: In reply to novaderrik: I would suggest using autocross to help better learn the handling limits of your car before doing a track day.I don't know about that. Getting 4 or 5 sub min runs on a super tight course isn't really going to help too much. Most tracks don't have a lot of turns as tight and as slow as a typical autocross course.
I haven't tried an HPDE yet, but that sounds about right. One of my friends who is a NASA instructor told me that autocrossers have to learn to slow down their hands when they do an HPDE, and the way he reminds them is to say, "Autocross is dancing the jitterbug, road courses are dancing the waltz."
I have to say, though, that I was surprised when I did parade laps at sebring for the first time; turns 3 and 4 were much tighter than I expected.
I don't worry too much about classes etc. There is always someone or a group of someones who run around the same time as I do and that's my competition. We're thinking of establishing an over 60 division,car or driver.
DILYSI Dave wrote: Basically, most of the things that steer operations come down to a basic decision that has to be made both by the entrant and the club. Which is more important - competition or simplicity. Unfortunately, these seem kind of diametrically opposed, and thus an event that does one well, seems to do the other poorly. For some folks (I'm one of them) the draw is the competition. I could go to other clubs who have more runs, or shorter events, or less work, etc., but if they don't scratch the competitive itch, then I just don't care. OTOH, there are folks who just want to get out there and slide their car around and don't care about competition. Those folks have a different set of requirements for an event. If I'm concerned with competition, I want an event that has a lot of people (so that there is a better chance of the fast guys showing up), relatively few runs (the point of autox is the ability to get it done in 3, plus, it costs about $30-$40 per run to operate my car), a defined class structure with classes that run at the same time (I don't want to win / lose based on weather, course condition, etc. - I want to race against the best people I can, under the same conditions). I've done "fun" events, and while I do enjoy the more laid back atmosphere, they just didn't scratch the itch for me. If I am the fast car there by several seconds, then I haven't competed, I've just wasted $200 worth of tires.
I see your point. I like very competitive events, such as the PA State Championship which is run as you prefer and attracts very fast drivers. However, due to other activities, I don't get enough seat time to be truly competitive in the serious events, which I attend infrequently, so my regional events are perfect for me and other casual competitors. Fortunately, there are always both kinds of events running in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic. Philly, Susquehanna and CPA run events that blend fund and serious competition to varying degrees and most importantly, they are all run by good people. NEPA is the most laid back, but we have fun as well and attract fast drivers from ither regions looking for seat time.
Look at the results from national and divisional events here in the East and you will find several NEPA drivers at or near the top. The word is getting out that our smaller lots are helping to improve our drivers' reflexes and cr control. I am serious. Drivers from other regions have expressed this opinion.
In reply to Rusnak_322:
It is not about speed. It is about speed versus distance. Running 40 in a gym is just as challenging as running 140 on a big track. Car control is car control. You can get even the best car to its adhesion limits on a tight autocross car. I have seen very good and established road racers struggle (relatively speaking of course) on an autocross course.
In reply to alfadriver:
Two points:
1) It is good to try to convince someone to try it once, even if the say the "know" they won't like it. I was one of those people 15 years ago.
2) I have not observed a problem getting drivers to work. If you don't report to the chief of workers when it is time to work, your times don't count. We have done this for 10 years in NEPA and we have not had a problem.
Who knows, maybe this is keeping the PITA people away. More runs for me!!! 
In reply to JoeyM:
That is a great way to describe the difference between the two. I have observed the reverse in autocross as road racers have to quicken their hands and feet. The real stars are the hill climb folks who autocross. Hill climbs combine higher speeds with tight turns. It requires the skills of both a road racer and an autcrosser. I have much respect for hill-climbers.
Moparman wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Two points: 1) It is good to try to convince someone to try it once, even if the say the "know" they won't like it. I was one of those people 15 years ago. 2) I have not observed a problem getting drivers to work. If you don't report to the chief of workers when it is time to work, your times don't count. We have done this for 10 years in NEPA and we have not had a problem. Who knows, maybe this is keeping the PITA people away. More runs for me!!!
1- go for it. but I'm not going to argue over it. I sometimes see these arguemtns on "why I like autocrossing" justifications- which I've learned that what you think about me is irrelevant, so do what you want, I'll do what I want.
2- again, it's what works for us. We feel that there is no need to force people to work, and would rather reward them. We both get the same job done. Ours happens to let people show up, run, and leave if they have other things to do that day, and need points toward a championship. AND we've been doing it for so long that all participants understand that they can do it when they need to as well.
That's really my point- if you don't like the club you run with- you have choices- either find another that you like, or do it yourself. The "yourself" does have issues- since you pretty much need a national club to cover the cost of basic insurance, but after that- it's a matter of lot cost + insurace vs. entry fee and # of drivers.
I know that GRM has no time to oganize autocrosses themselves, but I'd be willing to bet that Tim is far from alone in his general area in thinking what he thinks- get enough of them together, and form a small core group that can offer alternatives. Simple as that.
FWIW- our costs vary from $600-$1500/autocross. Average of $800- and we charge an average of $20pp. So if we average 40 drivers for all of our events, we break even. Good enough. Everything more is gravy. More than 80 makes it more of a chore than fun, less than 60 really lets us have fun with fun runs.
(oh, one more thing- we break up fun runs into 2 groups- one for non club members, where you get X number of run, and then club members who get unlimited runs- I've taken as many as 15 fun runs one day- shared a bunch of cars, and it was a blast)
In reply to WilberM3:
Our sponsor provides trophies (Jack Williams Tire - another shameless plug).
In reply to alfadriver:
Dude, I am not saying I am right and you are wrong. I was just describing how we do it and most people seem happy with that. That is all.
As far as trying to convince someone, what can it hurt to be persuasive in a friendly way. That is how many of us first tried many of our avocations (and probably a good number of our vocations). It is like a kid in college. How many of us "knew" what we wanted to do in life only to change are major or, like myself, do something for a living that is different than your degree?
kazoospec wrote: I've also started looking for car specific groups (Porsche/Corvette/Miata clubs) because they don't seem to have the "turn out" of some of the larger organizations.
I've actually been running with our local BMWCCA chapter all season in my Subaru) rather than SCCA or some of the other clubs around here for that very reason. Typical turnout is under 100 cars (occasionally more) and though it's not quite as smooth-running as SCCA events (due to alot more noob attendees) and at most events we're getting 5 1-minute runs, and then untimed fun runs afterwards (mostly so the BMW guys can show off their RWD tokyo drift skillz 
I've found the events to be much more laid back than SCCA and people there are more about fun than ultra-hardcore competition - though in each class there are 4 or 5 top people who talk some friendly trash and push each other. Plus for the non-BMW folks there are only 4 classes (essentially broken down by displacement and then adjustted for FI/Rotary and competition tires. Oddly, the classes that way turn out to be pretty competitive regardless of the "mods" on the respective cars.
Since my wrx is severely under-modded (and under-tire-d) for STU allowances in SCCA and set up for my 50 miles of daily commuting, I really have no chance of being competitive at all at the big DC region events around here (200+ cars, lots of people with lots of money to build very fast cars, lots of very good drivers). And while I'm not all-out about winning all the time, it does get old going out there, driving well, and still being 4 seconds off the class leader in an evo/sti built to the max allowances of the rules. I don't have that kind of time or money.
Not to mention I paid $30 for a year membership in BMWCCA, which gets me into events for $30. I think for DC region SCCA, annual dues are just under $100 and events $40 or so. So I'm saving some money too, which is key.
I'll probably get more involved with SCCA again someday down the road once my car is more spec'd out and competitive...but until then, I'd prefer just to have fun and not deal with the overblown SCCA classing rules.
Can't wait to put on my H-brace on the underbody - it hardly helps at all with performance but solidifies the chassis over the crappy roads here. Perfectly legal in my class, but in SCCA it would bump me up to freakin Prepared, IIRC. Things like that are what piss me off about SCCA classing.
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Another club (Capitol Driving Club) around here, which runs on small lots usually, uses a "handicap" system for index. no classes at all - your index/standing is determined using a formula based on your handicap - much like golf. It seems to work out pretty well, overall since it is about improving your car/driving relative to the previous events.
Anyhow, just blabbering on a Saturday evening. The life of a married man with kids...
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edit: all that said, I personally don't mind doing coursework. We usually get 2-3 guys that know each other at each station so it's a social thing, work on my tan (sitting in a cubicle all week doesnt do it!), and usually the 1st/2nd heat cutoffs are based on the car number, so I adjust my car number weekly so I work 1st, drive 2nd....and get to see more of the course and how people are driving certain sections.. I don't only go to drive myself - I also like to see other people drive....drool at the hot cars....gape at the best drivers.....laugh at the M3 that forgets to turn off his launch control and spins out in the 1st corner when he hits the button and so on..
Moparman wrote: That is a great way to describe the difference between the two. I have observed the reverse in autocross as road racers have to quicken their hands and feet.
Ian Stewart told me that if you want to transition from autcross to road courses, he thinks it's best to stop autocrossing for a while until you have gotten good at the higher speed stuff.
I think the idea behind that advice is as follows: attending events where your hands and feet are supposed to move quickly (e.g. autocross) while you are trying to learn how to slow your hands and feet down (HPDE, TTC, road racing, etc.) can inhibit the learning process.
Moparman wrote: I have much respect for hill-climbers.
Me too. That takes big brass ones.
In reply to JoeyM:
I can understand his logic.
When I first saw this thread (the first one), I went, "huh?" and had to go back and read Tim's editorial again... So I did that first...
Hmm... to be honest, in the last year or so I've been autocrossing, I've heard/read comments like that so much that I hardly pay attention to them anymore.
I'm in the "DILYSI Dave-camp"... autocross isn't about the number of runs. It's about competition. Sure, it's fun and I don't really take it all that seriously, but I do it so that I can push my skills and my car in a controlled and competitive situation with minimal risk.
Maybe because I can from a sport where you got ONE timed run on the course over a whole weekend, the 4-5 chances we get in auto-x seems like a luxury.
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