Fix autocrossing, Pt. 2

I've autocrossed for about 6 years, and still consider myself a noobie, but that didn't stop me from being course designer and SSS. I've been on the BOD, an instructor for novices, timing and scoring laptop guy in the trailer, site chef, and head churl. I still feel I don't really get it, even though everyone says I have. I guess it's a personal thing, where I only compete against my last run time, and that's good enough for me.

Mid GA is a pretty small group; we refer to ourselves as Mayberry. Things are loose and relaxed, which infuriates some anal outsiders not familiar with our laid-back group. If you show up and need to leave early, we can get your 8-10 runs in the the first heat. We work it out, even though it sometimes means fudging on the 5 minute cool-down rule. We also let you pick your own class; we know that if you start to dominate, somebody's ganna say something, and then you will be moved to the proper class. There is rarely a challenge in this area, and most folks know what class they are before they even leave the house.

We are comprised of snobs, slackards, and everything in between. I wouldn't have it any other way.

The AXware program we run on the computer insures that we know how many runs each driver has run, so we don't group by class.. first in line, first to run. It helps expedite the heat, and "cutting in line" is agreeable to 95% of our participants. Like I said, this is Mayberry.

Truth is that only 6-8 people really run the whole thing, even though there are as many as 50 cars entered.. Sure, we have the driver/worker thing going on, but once they're finished their runs they are gone. We use the "everybody stack cones before awards are given out" system, and it works great. Because we post times after each heat, the drivers getting trophies know who they are before the fact. We used to give out traditional trophies, but the only car our supplier had to top them off was a damn '70 Torino! Now, in 1970, you could put a 429 in one and do well on the Nascar circuit, but I'll bet a Torino has never taken an AX championship. Lately, we have started giving out tiny (but real) 3" orange cones with 1st, 2nd, or 3rd printed on them. Less expensive, different, and can be stacked instead of taking up a lot of mantle space. They are very cool.

Having done the autocross thing for a few years has opened my eyes to lotsa things I didn't know. It has been an invaluable lesson that I wouldn't trade for anything. I'm a mediocre driver with a pretty fair car (usually P3), and enjoy immersing myself in the structure as well as the strategy.

The only time I've ever taken P1 is at PCA events, which I love. They only autocross 2-3 times a year, whereas the SCCA does it at least once a month. The grassroots satisfaction from beating Porsches in a Neon is priceless. I've only had one Porsche outrun Mikey, and it was a trailered, gutted and tubbed 914-6. I turned my car over to a better driver, who beat said Porsche by half a second.

I've been sitting out this season because of a number of issues, but my love for the sport will never die. Give it a shot; you won't be disappointed!

In regards to seat time... I get tons of "seat time" in my Miata driving back and forth to work, but for some reason the 4 minutes I get at an autocross are worth paying $30 and standing in the sun shagging cones for 2 hours. 30 passes down a drag strip are about as much fun to me as my morning commute, as well. And since I can't afford to ball up my car and walk away, I'll be staying away from HPDEs for now.

I agree with Dave Hardy as well. Every time I hear someone who says something to the effect that autocross needs to be fixed, it's usually coming from someone who isn't interested in the competition, it's someone who just wants to have fun sliding around. There's nothing wrong with that and regions can change things to suit their local members needs (per the solo rulebook)—but don't think for a moment that's going to appeal to a nationally competitive autocrosser.

Actually, now that I think about it a little more...a lot of these 'fix it' people remind me of one of our old employees---he liked autocross, but seemed obsessed with making it into his vision of what it should be. Unfortunately, he was also the type of person to choose other ways to spend the day if push came to shove. It's too hot, it's too cold, there's a 30-percent chance of rain, etc. That's really not enough motivation for a club to run events on.

Wowak wrote: ... since I can't afford to ball up my car and walk away, I'll be staying away from HPDEs for now.

That's a pretty good policy, right there..

Interesting thread. I think it's a worthy discussion, since perhaps someone in charge of an autocross somewhere may read it and change something to make things better at their events.

I'm a casual autocrosser. I've never been great at it, and certainly have never had the right equipment. I ran what I liked or what I had, not what was the Hot Thing in any particular class. I found the (SCCA) rule book annoying for most cars I drove so nothing was ever prepared to the level it should be, or I was bumped into a non-competitive class. Currently I autocross my Spec E30 in Prepared just for fun, and am usually the only one in it. I ran the Mini once (as shown in the avatar) and I think the workers were all glad when I was done since it took me so long to get around the course (it's an 850).

I don't mind working, but our local autocrosses have so large heats it seems to take forever to get through one. By the time we are, I'm pretty much done with working for a good long time, which means my motivation to attend the next autocross is diminished. It seems like we have more workers than we need, but since it's required to get your score, there will be 3 or 4 workers at a flag station. My brilliant idea is to have volunteer workers who receive tickets. At the end of the day one of the tickets can be drawn and the winner gets a cash reward. 50 cents or a buck per entrant would make a pretty sweet kitty, and would provide a reason for me to tolerate getting sunburnt standing out there for an hour and a half.

We only give out end-of-season trophies, which I think is fine. I don't need a bunch of mantle crap for being the only car in the class half the time. It keeps cost down and even the end-of-season one is optional; you have to request it.

The weekend membership/regular membership expense of SCCA events deters me somewhat also. I don't know why that has to be so expensive when I can run with the PCA or Corvette club for a simple flat fee. If the Vette club didn't run such tiny courses all the time here I'd just play in their pond.

Per Schroeder wrote: ... It's too hot, it's too cold, there's a 30-percent chance of rain, etc.

No wonder you cut him loose. In Cordele, we ran in the 90s, the 40s, and the rain. Nobody said anything about it more than "I should likely have to wash my car tomorrow."

Per Schroeder wrote: Every time I hear someone who says something to the effect that autocross needs to be fixed, it's usually coming from someone who isn't interested in the competition, it's someone who just wants to have fun sliding around.

Odd....I've experienced the opposite. We have a vocal contingent of members who want to change how things are done so that we can get more runs each day[*]. The ones who are most adamant about this are people who trailer their cars to events and/or run on r-compounds.

In contrast, I'm happy with the way that our events run, and don't see the need to change anything. I drive unmodified econoboxes on the same street tires I use to drive to and from work each day. I only attend one event a month, don't attend other club's events, and have never been to a state[+], regional or national event.

[*] - You've been to our events, so you know that we typically get 3-4 runs each day.

[+] - I did to to Sebring to chase cones for MSCC when we hosted the state championship course work when MSCC hosted the 2008 Florida State Championship, but I wasn't a competitor.

NYG95GA wrote: No wonder you cut him loose. In Cordele, we ran in the 90s, the 40s, and the rain. Nobody said anything about it more than "I should likely have to wash my car tomorrow."

We had all those conditions in one day last year. The day ended with hail.

It was AWESOME.

I don't think Autox needs to be fixed, just the people who are never happy. Heck when my car isn't ready to race I'll still go to the events and help out. It's fun and the people are the best.

In reply to JoeyM:

I have been trailering for a few years and use are tires. Although I prefer to get more than three one minute runs at regional events, I feel that six is enough. I have actually sat out runs to conserve tires. At some point you are just wasting rubber.

P.S. I am sitting out today's event with stomach issues.

NYG95GA wrote:

Wowak wrote: ... since I can't afford to ball up my car and walk away, I'll be staying away from HPDEs for now.

That's a pretty good policy, right there..

Or you can call Lockton Affinity and purchase track day insurance.........

Track day insurance is kind of expensive, and if I'm going to ball up a car on a race track, it is going to have a full cage and I am going to wear a Hans device. I saw too much in my years as an SCCA cornver worker to convince me other wise.

Right now, I autocross with the local Miata club and have a blast! I also run SCCA events once in awhile...maybe some day I will run more SCCA...but a lot of event dates over lap.

to me, fixing autocross means fixing and improving my driving skills, something I do every time I race...

My only beef with autocross, regardless of whatever else I've posted here, has to do with rule obsessed individuals who worry more that someone might have a competitive edge, than improving their skill. I've been whupped enough by better drivers in inferior cars to know that the car accounts for maybe 20% of drivers performance. I ran my first autocross in 1966 and I am impressed that this conversation is continuing. Same conversation, different voices, we are a passionate group.

In reply to lateapexer:

I agree. Back in 2001 we had an entrant (who is a nationally ranked road racer, currently) complain that a fellow competitor, who was getting a rerun due to a timing failure, did not wait the full 5 minute cool down period. He was reminded where he was (our local event) and was politely told to be quiet. He has not been back since, but autocross is not his bag anyway.

I have been up against cars which were at or just over the class limits and have been beaten by underprepared cars. It is all good. The only thing I worry about, and this is more for the other drives than myself, I try to help newbies find their proper class as per the rule book. Not prep level mind you, but class which the car should run in.

I am not going to read it all, but I will say as a 'never done it' that I could never justify the time spent for the incredibly small amount of track time. Wife and kids rule all.

My worthless $.02....

I autox'd a bunch from about 2002 until 2005, then less frequently through 2007 or 2008. Haven't run since then. Not coincidentally, my first child was born in 2004...I now have 3. As others have said, I just found it more and more difficult to justify spending the whole day away for just a few minutes for seat time. I ran in the heat, the sun, the freezing cold (we had a winter series here in Philly...and I remember some damn cold days) and the pouring rain. Great experiences.

Do I still think autox is fun? Absolutely.

Do I enjoy standing shagging cones for a few hours? Not particularly, but it's part of the deal. I have no problem with it. It's fun to watch the other cars and chat with other racers.

Does it need to be "fixed"? There's always room for improvement in most things in life, but I don't think any huge overhauls are needed.

The only real turn off I found in autox was a very select few people who, IMHO, took it waaaaay too seriously. Sure, I understand the competitive aspect of it, and I always wanted to beat my last run. But there were a very few folks who took it so far to the extreme that they didn't seem to be having any fun anymore. Look...the odds of discovering the next road course world superstar from an autox are kinda slim...so just lighten up and have fun. But 98% of people at the autox I went to were great and were fun to work with.

You are going to find the "serious" people in every hobby.

I got screamed at and a finger in my face from a co-worker because I didn't step in and take a charge during a lunch time basketball game at the Y. ...and it wasn't even a close game. ...and the guy was like 100 lbs heavier than me. ...and there has never been a charge in the history of pickup basketball. I signed up for a flag football league and our captain gave us like an 18 page play book, etc, etc.

I guess I'm lucky that I've never had an issue with the seat time. It is kind of grilling, if I didn't enjoy the entire experience, I guess I wouldn't do it.

tuna55 wrote: I am not going to read it all, but I will say as a 'never done it' that I could never justify the time spent for the incredibly small amount of track time. Wife and kids rule all.

Get them involved. My newly-18-year-old daughter just ran her 3rd event with me on Saturday, in mid-90s heat (120+ on the pavement). She started at 17 and is getting more confident and aggressive on course with every event. She's not competitive yet (or driving a competitive car) but she enjoys coming out and giving it a shot. She even volunteered to shag cones during the fun runs even though she didn't want to drive any more that day, then packed up both her car AND mine while I was helping pick up the course and stow the club gear.

I am in the "fun first, competition a close second" camp, and the local club I run with suits well. It's a good group but my class is usually small, so I also run a few events with the Philly Region SCCA group.

The BMC (local gang) usually schedules 2 heats of 3 run groups each, with 2-3 passes per heat. Work 1 group, drive 1 group, sit 1 group. Repeat for 2nd heat in the afternoon. Once everybody's official passes are done, it's usually a $5 donation for 2-3 fun runs. Then the equipment gets struck and trophies are given to anyone who stayed to help. It's fun enough that I usually show up early to help and am one of the last to leave, just for the camaraderie and to make it easy to keep the program going.

The Philly SCCA guys give out trophies after all official runs are in, then volunteers who offer to stay and pack up get free fun runs and everybody else goes home. So the people who want to stay get extra seat time and the people who want to vamoose can do so. I come to drive so to me the extra half hour or 45 minutes is well worth it for 4 or 5 extra passes.

ddavidv said: I don't mind working, but our local autocrosses have so large heats it seems to take forever to get through one. By the time we are, I'm pretty much done with working for a good long time, which means my motivation to attend the next autocross is diminished. It seems like we have more workers than we need, but since it's required to get your score, there will be 3 or 4 workers at a flag station.

This seems to be a common complaint/ observation. One of the local clubs has a system in place to deal with this.

They split each work group into 2 parts (a,b) and have group "a" go out and work the 1/2 half of the run group and group "b" work the second half. It seems like a fairly efficient use peoples time. (though I have only run with them once, so far...)

Tuna55 get your family involved. I've now had the pleasure of being beaten by two generations. There is no better driver training than autocross.

novaderrik wrote: when i first started reading up on autocross a couple of years ago, i kind of went in assuming that it was done the same way- i can see no reason why the classes would need to be grouped together for something that is based on time and where the cars run one at a time.

Air temperature, track surface temperature as well as rain or no rain will affect the times, thus classes need to run together.

I think I agree with the notion mentioned that A-X isn't broken so therefore doesn't need fixing, that more so it needs upgrading or corrections from time to time. I also think that it largely depends on what level you are at (both you the driver and the club you are with.) But that is old news. Incoming generations will bring new ideas and expectations. Those who are more greatly acclimated to new and emerging technologies will come up with ways of addressing issues that we have yet to come up with. At what point do we use the gps enabled abilities of cellular/pda technology to track times, design courses, and maybe move away from cones. You gotta admit that cones are a pretty archaic technology. Yeah, they work, but who's got the designs on the next generation of smart cones?

Being in tune to the needs and discomfort of workers is important too. Provide water, sunshade (both cream and umbrella), and allow changes on the fly. I also like the idea of trading work time for additional fun runs. Thinking a little outside the lines (remember to get through the next gate however!), collaborating on a regular basis, and pooling the insights of the noobies will afford many a club the tools needed for better more successful events.

I just reread Tim's comments about what to fix. Sorry Tim, but it comes across as local concerns, not general concerns. That's just my take. Sure, some commonalities are unavoidable to other clubs, organizations, and events, but each of us (the drivers, participants, and clubs) have unique issues that we are addressing. What are the clubs near you doing? Are you involved with them beyond driving? I personally would love to just show up and drive. But I know, and am assuming you do too as you've done more than most of us, that things don't get done unless someone does them. Sometime that means us. And, maybe we get tired of having to do the same things over again. To please others. Where's the me time. Guilty, too. My driving suffered while I was Chief of Safety in ATL. I know that now. It frustrated me then. And that group is one of the best organizations I've ever run with. Tim, I think something more is at the root of your rant. We are older, and we can't do things the we always have. Sorry about the web-based psycho interpretation, but it's all I've got to try and understand the issue. So, what's up, really? Gotta be tough, running two magazines, hosting events, running a business, having a family, and oh yeah, getting a chance to drive every once and a while without the headaches that can be associated with the same activity that is supposed to bring us joy.

Or I'm completely off my rocker. I don't know you. You don't know me.

Lastly, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose!

vwcorvette wrote: I just reread Tim's comments about what to fix. Sorry Tim, but it comes across as local concerns, not general concerns. That's just my take. Sure, some commonalities are unavoidable to other clubs, organizations, and events, but each of us (the drivers, participants, and clubs) have unique issues that we are addressing.

I re-read Tim's observations and also came to the same conclusion - it's a local and a personal issue.

Offering split sessions is a good way (for most) to avoid spending an entire day for 3-6 minutes of track time. Regions have the power to implement split sessions if the members agree to the change. Serious competitors who are running for points will still show up, whether their class runs in the AM or the PM. Regions should always offer a Time-Only class (in both sessions) to accommodate people who just want to have fun and don't care about points.

Another great thing about Time-Only is that people often modify their cars that put them at a severe disadvantage when placed in the "proper" class. If such people REALLY want to compete in the right class, they will make the appropriate changes. If they don't, running against the clock will still be a lot of fun.

And, having FUN is the primary purpose!

Time only....hmmm. Never thought of that. No classing, just time to compare, no points. New discussion for the next club meeting methinks.

Why do you need special "time only" classes? Can't you just ignore your standing within whatever class you're put, and only look at your times?