? for the Auto Service pros

My wife had a problem with her 2000 Buick LeSabre ocassionally stalling when she stopped at a stop sign or traffic light. She took it to the Buick dealership she has been dealing with since 1981 with no problems. The dealership was recently sold and has a new set of managers.

They called to say that it needed to have the throttle body and intake cleaned. I was skeptical but she told them to go ahead. She picked up the car and paid for it. On the way home it stalled at the third traffic light she stopped at.

Back to dealership. This time they say it needs a new ignition module and she OK's it. She picks it up and pays ($400 total now). On the way home it stalls several times.

At this point I get involved. I take it back and express my displeasure in a polite respectfull way. Get a call that it needs a new ECU ($$$). I tell them to go ahead but I want to drive it some before I pay. I pick up the car and it is worse than it was originally .

Back it goes. This time they say it needs a new mass air sensor. I ask "Didn't you check the sensors, etc before throwing these expensive parts at it?" Didn't get an answer. After they put it on I pick up the car and insist on driving it for a few days before paying. I drive it home and it seems to be running fine.

Next morning the wife goes to use the car and it will not start. Starter will not even click. I try jumping it with my car. Still no start. Call dealership and they tell me to have it towed there and they will look at it. I go out to try agin before I call the tow company. Put my key in, turn it on and it starts right up. So I drove it direcly to the dealership and made them bring me back home.

One hour later I get a phone call. "Do you have two sets of keys? The computer has a code in for invald key use." So I end up taking the wifes key to them so they can program the car to accept it.

I picked up the car and it seems to be running fine now but I will wait till next week before I let them know.

My question is "How would your dealeship handle this?" I am certain that when I go back they are going to give me a bill for $600 or so(ECU, key programming, diagnostic fees, etc). And then things are gong to get nasty.

Sounds like they are just throwing parts at it, hoping they will find the problem. As long as you are paying

I smell a tech who is performing 'guessnosis'. Also known as the shotgun approach; you fire a blast of stuff at it hoping you hit the one thing responsible. In short, the same thing doctors get paid VERY well to do.

In his defense, intermittent problems can be a real bear to run down.

But I would also say the replacement ECU was installed without verifying that all of the customer's valid keys were present. I always told the customer if there was a special order module of any type that we really needed all the keys to prevent such occurences. If they didn't have all the keys with them, I'd ask them to bring the others back later for programming. I'd say you also have a service advisor who wasn't aware of such a thing. I would not pay any further diagnosis fees or key programming. The ECU, well, assuming that's what really fixes the car, well you are responsible for that. It might have been a PITA to run down the problem but it is your car, not theirs.

I would question the ignition module and throttle body cleaning charges, since the problem occured again after those were done. See if they will credit those toward the cost of the ECU.

The ECU didn't fix it either. They had to put in a new mass air sensor before it was fixed.

Fuel filter. Did they even check that?

Oh, was it the mass air sensor?

confuZion3 wrote: Fuel filter. Did they even check that?

Replacing the fuel filter was done as part of the fuel system cleaning.

Hal wrote: The ECU didn't fix it either. They had to put in a new mass air sensor before it was fixed.

And presumably you/they don't have the old ECU anymore so you could verify that it was a mass air sensor?

I'm with Jensenman, they seem to have used the scattergun approach to "fixing" the problem instead of working through it logically which would probably have cost a bit more diagnosis-wise but would've resulted in a lower parts bill.

Jensenman wrote: I smell a tech who is performing 'guessnosis'. Also known as the shotgun approach; you fire a blast of stuff at it hoping you hit the one thing responsible.

With the diagnostic tools they have available why are are they guessing? The cheap scanner I use on my Focus will let me monitor real-time data on a number of parameters. My buddy uses a laptop with data logging software. Together we have been able to solve similar probelms on our highly modified cars.

It doesn't make sense to replace the computer until you are sure all the inputs to that computer are working properly. We fixed a hesitation problem with my car by monitoring the TPS. We could see that there was an anomaly in the output at the half open position. A new TPS solved the problem.

Hal wrote:

confuZion3 wrote: Fuel filter. Did they even check that?

Replacing the fuel filter was done as part of the fuel system cleaning.

Make sure it is on the receipt, if it's not... it's not.

IF we misdiagnose something we either replace the original unit or discount the part but not the labor. It depends on whether the part was determined faulty through Guided Fault Findings or if the tech was guessnosing.

No problem since 1981, then they sold it. Didn't you want to scream? I hate when that happens!

It sounds to me like they are morons. Even if they are going with the "throw parts at it" approach, I bet I sell MAF sensors 100 to 1 over ECU's for that model. If they knew anything at all about that year, make and model they would have started there.

pinchvalve wrote: No problem since 1981, then they sold it. Didn't you want to scream? I hate when that happens!

Yes, I'm probably as mad about that as I am about the service. We always buy "new" and our #1 criteria when looking for a new car is the reputation of the dealerships service department. We will never buy Chevrolet or Dodge because of the reputation of the service at the dealer with those franchises.

We were planning on getting her a new car next year but now it won't be a Buick. Unfortunately, that also excludes Hyundai from the list since they have that franchise.

My Hyundai Stealership uses the shotgun method too. I only go there for warranty work and then even then it is like pulling teeth to get them to a) fix the problem and b) do it under warranty (pay for it). Hyundai claims they have the “Best warranty in America” first you have to pay extra to get the 10Yr/100,000Mi deal and it has 24 pages of exceptions. My dad just bought his second BMW because the way they do service. They were performing warranty work on the car after even the extended warranty was up.