DC Fast Chargers are a bit of a meme. Its nice to think that they exist and you can find them every 200 miles. In reality, that is pretty far from the truth. In Milwaukee County (population of 928,000) there are 6 available for the public (5 in one location and 1 in another). I would say that is a statistically insignificant number.
When I had my Polestar 1 out in San Diego area, I was able to find exactly one (1) working DC Fast Charger. So I don't think you can count on them being everywhere. Its a great talking point but they are not commonly available, even in the most EVish of areas (San Diego and Encinitas)
Tim, I do own a PHEV, the wife's commuting vehicle, so I understand EV just fine. Please note the PH part, thats the saving grace. We road tripped it down from Milwaukee to Chattanooga on the interstate, you would think for a modern city that is trying to grow (Chattanooga) there would be chargers on every corner, but there were not. The hotel we stayed at (the Chattanoogan) had no EV charging. There were two Level II chargers across the road, but the lot had no overnight parking and the chargers were disabled when the business was closed wa wa waaaaa. There was a charger in a parking structure about a 6 block walk from the hotel, but thats a huge pain in the dick, and the cost of the parking garage made it cheaper to just toss some gas in it and party on. Lookout Mountain advertises an EV charger, but it was broken.
For around town and costco runs, this lil PHEV is perfect. It is so nice to never fill up at the gas pumps. For putting on the miles, just too damn much stress for the pennies it saves.
tuna55
MegaDork
3/27/24 1:48 p.m.
The OP and owner of the magazine literally has a seven page thread of himself towing race cars, engines, machine tools, campers and all manner of things all over the eastern seaboard for the last 20K miles. I'm about to turn over 100K miles in my Bolt. Keith has a long term ownership detailed of his Model 3. All of us are delighted, and each car is serving its intended purpose (including Tom's truck doing truck stuff).
Seems EVs work just fine for a lot of people.
tuna55 said:
Seems EVs work just fine for a lot of people.
Come on guys -- for more than a decade EVs have proven themselves as a practical alternative for people who could charge at home, which is about 2/3 of American households.
Despite its sub-100 mile range, my parents' 2013 Leaf was a useful and reliable daily travel appliance until was totaled a couple of weeks ago. The Kia Soul EV i leased from 2015-2018 was a surprisingly good daily commuter and grocery-getter. My in-law's 2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance has been rock solid reliable, useful even for road trips, and mind-altering fast.
Each new generation of EVs is significantly improved over the cars they replace--which drives depreciation--but the older cars still remain useful to their owners. Check out the condition of this 400,000 mile Tesla: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRuJJtmN3fc
tuna55
MegaDork
3/27/24 2:36 p.m.
93gsxturbo said:
100k on a Bolt is awesome (and at the same time, my condolences)
Why? It's one of the best cars I've ever driven. I've owned it for under four years, and yeah, the mileage is nearly all commuting, with a few camping trips and longer distance trips sprinkled in. That's how an extremely large majority of the world uses their vehicles.
But you ignored Tom's real world experience of owning an EV truck doing truck things for 20K miles, towing anything he can get his hands on. You're just focusing on my Bolt, likely because it's much more different than your use case. So for everything in between Keith's use case, my use case (which is still pretty extreme, most people don't do 80-100 miles per day) and Tom's, we have real world evidence that it works great. If you're towing 1000 miles all the time, it's likely not a great answer. The proportion of private vehicles on the road doing that are a tiny minority, so fine, keep driving what you drive.
93gsxturbo said:
Comparing Teslas, with an excellent charger network, built in nav to take you to those charge spots, and dedicated high speed charging (and dont forget that the vehicles themselves are not existing designs with a pack of cells strapped between the framerails - Roadster excluded, they are actually efficient, purpose built EVs) is like comparing bowling balls and rocket ships.
Tesla did it right, build a charging network and THEN start hammering out the EVs. The charging network is what you are buying, and its really really good. Kind of like the iPhone. The experience is what you are buying, and its really really good.
100k on a Bolt is awesome (and at the same time, my condolences), how many of those miles have been on multi-thousand mile road trips vs daily commuting? I don't think anyone would say an EV you can charge at home on the reg is a bad idea (again, I *have* one, and it is the bees knees for running around town)
The mismatch of all the other chargers and standards is one of the biggest hurdles for practical EV adoptions for non-Tesla vehicles. Look at what Hertz ran into. Went headlong into EVs thinking everyone would want one and they are oh-so-practical. Well I don't wanna spoil the surprise but feel free to read up on it.
Uh, my truck charges at Tesla DC fast chargers, the nav system automatically plans trips, and the battery is bigger than any Tesla....
Opti
UltraDork
3/27/24 3:13 p.m.
tuna55 said:
. So for everything in between Keith's use case, my use case (which is still pretty extreme, most people don't do 80-100 miles per day) and Tom's, we have real world evidence that it works great. If you're towing 1000 miles all the time, it's likely not a great answer. The proportion of private vehicles on the road doing that are a tiny minority, so fine, keep driving what you drive.
That's probably overselling it a little. The average daily mileage in my county of about 160K people is just shy of 70 miles. You have large population centers with very short commutes, and then you have large chunks of the country that on average mileages of upwards 50 miles. That means a pretty large group of this country easily averages 80 miles a day.
Source
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-distance-us-map
If the question was "Is it the truck of the future?" The answer is no. Its not even the truck of the day, ive seen between a 1 out of 10 or a 1 out of 20 take rate, so it would seem buyers largely prefer the more conventional ICE setup
Got to drive a friend's lightning over the weekend a little bit and I thought it was great. Luckily my existing truck is working just fine for now so I don't have to make any tough decisions.
Still looking for a cheap wrecked Tesla to slide under my old jag however...
OK so now when we say we can charge at Tesla fast chargers (sure is super practical to bring a truck and trailer into a place meant for a midsize car, but thats a discussion for another day), what are we really saving?
A quick google search shows that Tesla Supercharger rates in Florida $/KW are $0.34 for peak (10 AM to 8PM) and $0.17 for off peak. Of course they are slightly variable but thats the rough numbers
Average gas price in Florida right now is $3.47.
Using the numbers as follows - both are best case Ontarios:
121KW pack, 320 mile range (Lightning)
20 MPG on regular (regular F150 3.5 Ecoboost)
Peak travel time you save a whopping $0.034/mile. Off peak you save $0.104/mile.
Over 100k miles, the savings is between $3,500 and $10,390.
The $3k is chump change, that can be absorbed by a quick dip in gas prices like most of 2016-2020 was - if gas drops to $2.50 a gallon and electricity holds steady it actually costs you *more* to drive an EV and deal with all the challenges of EV ownership.
Even the $10k isnt a tremendous savings on the gamble that the rest of the EV cost of ownership and depreciation will be similar to a traditional ICE.
As editorial fodder, a lightining is probably a great choice. For people who make money with their vehicles in other ways, not ideal.
tuna55
MegaDork
3/27/24 3:45 p.m.
Opti said:
tuna55 said:
. So for everything in between Keith's use case, my use case (which is still pretty extreme, most people don't do 80-100 miles per day) and Tom's, we have real world evidence that it works great. If you're towing 1000 miles all the time, it's likely not a great answer. The proportion of private vehicles on the road doing that are a tiny minority, so fine, keep driving what you drive.
That's probably overselling it a little. The average daily mileage in my county of about 160K people is just shy of 70 miles. You have large population centers with very short commutes, and then you have large chunks of the country that on average mileages of upwards 50 miles. That means a pretty large group of this country easily averages 80 miles a day.
Source
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-distance-us-map
If the question was "Is it the truck of the future?" The answer is no. Its not even the truck of the day, ive seen between a 1 out of 10 or a 1 out of 20 take rate, so it would seem buyers largely prefer the more conventional ICE setup
Even if that data is correct, meaning that 70 miles is an average, that's still easily within the range of every EV sold today. That map instead shows that 70 miles is an average for the highest measured (counties?) in the US. Most, in fact the large majority, are well under that, by your data. So, that's sort of what I said.
I think take rate is a really poor indicator of applicability, because otherwise someone is going to have to make a logical math oriented case for a front wheel drive turbo 4 cyl CUV, and that's going to be tough.
Don't forget that the vast majority of my charging happens at home for far less, though. If I was using public charging every day, I wouldn't have bought an EV.
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like this calculation assumes that all of the charging is being done at some kind of paid charger, which I don't think is the case for most people. The vast majority of our Lightning's (and most other EV's) charging happens at home during time when the car would normally be sitting there doing nothing, and where the price per KWh is lower. That's worth factoring in.
In reply to Tom Suddard :
Oop, jinx, I owe you a coke
tuna55
MegaDork
3/27/24 4:11 p.m.
Nicole Suddard said:
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like this calculation assumes that all of the charging is being done at some kind of paid charger, which I don't think is the case for most people. The vast majority of our Lightning's (and most other EV's) charging happens at home during time when the car would normally be sitting there doing nothing, and where the price per KWh is lower. That's worth factoring in.
Yes, and nearly all of my charging is at home as well. My dollar per mile ratio between this Bolt and a reasonably efficient ICE equivalent is like 1/7 or 1/8. It's pretty great. Plug, why do gas stations always smell like cigarettes? I never stop for gas anymore other than the mower, and it's next.
The endless battles about EV vs ICE are STUPID. They are different tools with different benefits and limitations. Why is that so hard for some to understand? Yes, the Government has taken sides, but that's another issue altogether and may change next year anyway.
Nicole Suddard said:
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like this calculation assumes that all of the charging is being done at some kind of paid charger, which I don't think is the case for most people. The vast majority of our Lightning's (and most other EV's) charging happens at home during time when the car would normally be sitting there doing nothing, and where the price per KWh is lower. That's worth factoring in.
Florida average residential cost kwh is $0.16/kwh, very similar to my home state of Wisconsin at $0.17/kwh
So you save 10k over the 100k lifetime of the vehicle in fuel at current prices which are arguably high (still relatively low in the grand scheme of things, but high all things considered). Thats a big gamble and as evidenced by the aformentioned take rate, not a gamble most people feel to favorably about.
A friend once mentioned to me that as we all make more money, the true luxury is time. If I am on vacation, or work, or anywhere else, I don't want to wait for even 40 minutes 3-4x on my trip at one of the mythical DC fast chargers, I don't want to make a trip to town from the mountains and drive around for 3 hours just trying to find a place to charge my e-truck, and I certainly don't want to be stressing about something that I could have avoided. So yeah I gotta gas up from time to time, but its a fast, easy, predictable process with essentially zero barrier to entry or unknowns. Can't say the same about EVs.
Tuna I would love to see the math where the Bolt fueling costs are 1/7 or 1/8 that of a comparable traditional ICE. Not calling you a liar just asking you to show your work.
tuna55
MegaDork
3/27/24 4:26 p.m.
93gsxturbo said:
Nicole Suddard said:
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like this calculation assumes that all of the charging is being done at some kind of paid charger, which I don't think is the case for most people. The vast majority of our Lightning's (and most other EV's) charging happens at home during time when the car would normally be sitting there doing nothing, and where the price per KWh is lower. That's worth factoring in.
Florida average residential cost kwh is $0.16/kwh, very similar to my home state of Wisconsin at $0.17/kwh
So you save 10k over the 100k lifetime of the vehicle in fuel at current prices which are arguably high (still relatively low in the grand scheme of things, but high all things considered). Thats a big gamble and as evidenced by the aformentioned take rate, not a gamble most people feel to favorably about.
A friend once mentioned to me that as we all make more money, the true luxury is time. If I am on vacation, or work, or anywhere else, I don't want to wait for even 40 minutes 3-4x on my trip at one of the mythical DC fast chargers, I don't want to make a trip to town from the mountains and drive around for 3 hours just trying to find a place to charge my e-truck, and I certainly don't want to be stressing about something that I could have avoided. So yeah I gotta gas up from time to time, but its a fast, easy, predictable process with essentially zero barrier to entry or unknowns. Can't say the same about EVs.
Tuna I would love to see the math where the Bolt fueling costs are 1/7 or 1/8 that of a comparable traditional ICE. Not calling you a liar just asking you to show your work.
It's all in my thread. Soon to be updated at 100K. I keep a spreadsheet and compare with regional gas prices of gasbuddy.
Opti
UltraDork
3/27/24 5:42 p.m.
In reply to tuna55 :
I was only commenting on you describing people driving over 80 miles a day as a tiny minority.
2017 data says about 3.3 million people "stretch commute" (over 50 miles one way), I was simply saying thats a lot of people, and it doesnt even take into account the number of people that dont do it "everyday" but still need the additional range, but are less regular. I couldnt find more recent exact data, but I can find info saying as a whole our commutes have got longer since then, so it is likely to be an even greater number of people.
You can say thats a tiny minority but by that same standard you can say an even tinier minority has looked at the available EVs new and used and decided they are the right vehicle for their needs, considering as of 2024 we have about 2.4M EVs in the US.
Take rate on a macro level is a great indicator of applicability, because it is a huge group of people with diverse needs, wants and budgets deciding what works best for their scenario, and as a group Americans have been slow to adopt.
You can make the argument, it works, doesnt mean its the best tool. I can write with a crayon, but a pen works better.
We have two imaginary types of extreme users here. One has a vehicle that never stops moving, is always far away from populated areas and does not have access to cell service to access things like Plugshare or ABRP. This user has to refuel their vehicle with no advance notice at whatever gas station comes along, and the gas stations are always en-route from one destination to another so there is no need to detour and thus the amount of time spent refuelling every few days is only seen as 5 minutes.
The other has a vehicle that generally travels less than 200 miles/day and has a Level 2 charger that can recharge the vehicle overnight. Refueling has effectively disappeared from the equation as the vehicle is always charged. On longer road trips, some advance planning is required, such as plugging the destination into a navigation system that knows about charging. The extra effort involved in finding a charger to use while the driver is doing something else is always viewed as an acceptable tradeoff for the time/effort savings the rest of the time.
These two users do not understand each other.
I've calculated in the past that the cost to fuel my EV on road trips works out to be about the same as a gas car that makes 40-ish MPG. That's assuming I don't stay overnight at a hotel with a destination charger, which gives me a free "tank" of gas, and ignores the fact that I start every trip with a full tank. At home, I think it's about 90 mpg cost equivalent assuming I'm paying market price for electrons (which I don't). Of course, this math changes as the price of fuel and the price of DC fast charging fluctuates. I can tell you that even if it cost exactly the same to run the EV as an ICE, my wife would choose the EV for sheer convenience and comfort. But that's a different factor than just math.
Can we just talk about this particular EV without this turning into thread #384732 about EVs vs ICE cars?
Have you done any towing further afield? I'm curious how the Lightning handles that.
There are a couple tracks close to me, but since I do Lemons, my drives are 2x 300, 550 and 750+ miles to the 5 nearest events to DFW. I wound up going for a used single wheel 350 over a similarly priced Lightning mainly due to those tows and not wanting to play rental roulette to get a bigger truck 4 weekends a year. Plus if/when our team expands to 2 cars I wanted to handle a multi car trailer with less stress
Once it's paid off I'll be giving serious looks at a Lightning or other Ev as a daily, cause driving a battleship is fun, but parking it can be a chore sometimes
93gsxturbo said:
A friend once mentioned to me that as we all make more money, the true luxury is time. If I am on vacation, or work, or anywhere else, I don't want to wait for even 40 minutes 3-4x on my trip...
Cool, you probably shouldn't buy an EV, seems like it isn't the right solution for you. But why the war? Seems like you could just turn your back on this thread and not be materially injured. Maybe you could gas up your diesel in 2 minutes instead of 3 because all the woke tree huggers (insert sarcasim emoji) will be waiting to plug in their useless junk EV's at the local broken DC charger. Let it go.
Keith Tanner said:
That's assuming I don't stay overnight at a hotel with a destination charger, which gives me a free "tank" of gas.
This is an interesting piece of information - do any of the hotels charge for this, and how do you find theses chargers?
