Ford leaving WRC

HiTempguy wrote:

Moving_Target wrote:

HiTempguy wrote: Mini was dead before it arrived, a shame, but that is BMW's fault.

Suzuki pulled the same stunt with the SX4 WRC car.

No, Suzuki got screwed out of, oh, I don't know, $50 million odd dollars of investing in a team that the FIA berkeleyed them so hard on they'll probably never be seen in the WRC again. They developed a car for the old WRC rules (2.0L turbo active diffs) and then the FIA changed the rules to completely different cars/specs. It was beyond insane.

Point taken. I forgot about the rule changes. Oopsie.

Keith Tanner wrote: As for why Ford is pulling out, that's a tough one.

Racing at the highest level requires emotional pull and personal interest, this is as true for the financiers as it is for the fans. The large companies that do the best at racing are the ones that have a strong core of people in high places that have a big personal interest in the racing they are doing.

When Jost left for VW, there was/is no strong advocate of rallying left that has a personal interest in it, and with North America being the base of global racing it was not realistic to continue to fund WRC after he left. Because without personal interest, it's just a potential marketing avenue (there is no engineering tie back to production), and it's easier to choose to sponsor American Idol or golf because that is easier to quantify, as well as being more personally interesting to the people making the decision.

Being a VIP at a WRC event is no treat unless you really like WRC. There are no trappings of luxury on stage, so imagine the VIP spending the big bucks for WRC walking around in the mud, dust or snow, not watching the cars, talking about marketing strategies related to superbowl ads (well I dunno, something unrelated to cars for sure) and wishing they were at a golf course. It is not pretty, but true. This was inevitable.

no

I stopped watching WRC years ago.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Money is money when it's coming from one source. Marketing wise- I really don't see what VW gets out of it, considering what Citroen, Mini, Ford, Mitsu and Subaru have gotten in the last few years. last time anyone got anything signficant- WRX, Evo 11 or 12, and the not recent Focus RS. Since then- nothing has really developed out of Rallying. I really dont' see the current RS or ST as being WRC related. Certainly, it will survive. What will it become?

Money is money, yes But if you look at this from outside the industry, the badge on the car is important. Otherwise why would both VW and Skoda brands exist? VW has decided to win the WRC, and they've decided they want to do it with their global VW brand instead of their European Skoda brand. So that's a difference. As far as the marketing audience is concerned, VW is entering WRC.

The reason the WRX, Evos and the older RS are connected with rallying is because their manufacturers decided they would be. Marketing! I'm not sure Mitsubishi was still in rallying when the last one or two Evos were introduced, I'd have to check. If VW decides to use the rallying as a halo to sell more cars, they'll make the effort. It's probably easier to connect a WRC car to a car in the showroom than it is with a Le Mans Audi.

grpb wrote: Being a VIP at a WRC event is no treat unless you really like WRC. There are no trappings of luxury on stage, so imagine the VIP spending the big bucks for WRC walking around in the mud, dust or snow, not watching the cars, talking about marketing strategies related to superbowl ads (well I dunno, something unrelated to cars for sure) and wishing they were at a golf course. It is not pretty, but true. This was inevitable.

The Japanese suits for Subaru and Mitsubishi Canada didn't seem to mind. Same with Yokohama.

Keith Tanner wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Money is money when it's coming from one source. Marketing wise- I really don't see what VW gets out of it, considering what Citroen, Mini, Ford, Mitsu and Subaru have gotten in the last few years. last time anyone got anything signficant- WRX, Evo 11 or 12, and the not recent Focus RS. Since then- nothing has really developed out of Rallying. I really dont' see the current RS or ST as being WRC related. Certainly, it will survive. What will it become?

Money is money, yes But if you look at this from outside the industry, the badge on the car is important. Otherwise why would both VW and Skoda brands exist? VW has decided to win the WRC, and they've decided they want to do it with their global VW brand instead of their European Skoda brand. So that's a difference. As far as the marketing audience is concerned, VW is entering WRC. The reason the WRX, Evos and the older RS are connected with rallying is because their manufacturers decided they would be. Marketing! I'm not sure Mitsubishi was still in rallying when the last one or two Evos were introduced, I'd have to check. If VW decides to use the rallying as a halo to sell more cars, they'll make the effort. It's probably easier to connect a WRC car to a car in the showroom than it is with a Le Mans Audi.

Thats why Subaru pulled out of WRC, they met their advertising marketing goal of "displaying that a subaru is capable of any terrian" so when the economy took a dump, they stood by that excuse and called it mission accomplished.

One of the engineers for ProDrive mentioned in "Engineering the World Rally" that while only one team can get 1st place, it's important to appear to always be competitive and have the possibility of winning or something to that effect.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

My point is- what one car other than the WRX, Evo, or RS have an obvious relationship with WRC?

I know that some drifter video kids make stuff with Fiestas. but they are not top end rally cars. What special Citroen has come out? Basically, there hasn't been a WRC for the street for quite a few years now. The current RS seems to be more BTCC than WRC.

Or what I'm saying- it does not appear that the current state of WRC is selling any cars. Maybe the 206 gets some sales- I know that they do better in Sweden. But nothing that is attracting that much attention. It SHOULD be easier to make WRC's more applicable than LeMans, ironically, only VW and the French care much about P1, as it looks to be in WRC.

To me, there's not much interesting going on in racing (technically, that is). Love to watch some of it. But it does not make an intesting car, and much of it does not seem to sell many more cars.

anyway, it's not as if the WRC is the only racing thing that is seeing drastic changes....

In reply to alfadriver:

Extremely good points Eric! There have been a ton of cool road cars at least loosely based on, or sold because of WRC (WRX and STi, all the EVO's, Focus RS, etc, etc) but not one of them has really come out in at least the last 5 years. The rules changes and "spec-ness" of WRC killed the competition, and the actual marketing tie-in. Until the closer-to-production (or heck, even the outrageous-but-factory-built Group B) rules come back, WRC won't matter.

Here's a different take....

Much racing is very loosely based on road cars, and a vast majority isn't at all- f1, indy, LeMan's P cars... etc...

Now there are some very great rally road cars- Mini, Escort, WRX, Evo, Focus RS, and I'm sure there are more.

But the truly legendary rally cars are more exotics than road cars- Scorpion, Alpine, Audi, RS2000, 959, GTO, etc. Can rules be written that cars that are very loosely road legal cars be developed for Rallying and be reasonable?

My opinion of the current best idea for leveling- the fuel flow limiter- so you get to use X potential energy. That way the fans don't need to see some kind of restrictor, the rules can be more leaning toward production based (P2) or wild out of the box (F1), and span a pretty wide margin of real cost benefits.

Especially if an investment can span more than one series- some of the cooler, but not so sucessful, distance cars used F1 motors- Ferrari, Cosworth, Alfa (vice versa), etc. If I can P2 a powertrain, can I WRC with it, as well?

Just going off on ideas... none of which matter much.

HiTempguy wrote: The Japanese suits for Subaru and Mitsubishi Canada didn't seem to mind. Same with Yokohama.

That is because the Europeans and Japanese go crazy for rally, they have a very personal interest, and many of them compete or have competed at the amateur level in some form of motorsport. Contrast that with: an open class rally car has been brought by the 'racing' offices of a Detroit OEM in the middle of the day on an open trailer enroute to LSPR, unloaded, warmed up, blasted around the area, anti-lag popping, with nary a peep of the high ups inside demanding (as is their right) a turn behind the wheel. Likewise, when a 'hoonigan' vehicle comes into town for filming or testing on the pad, the only people to be found in the area are grunts and perhaps a program manager on the cell phone in the trailer (because the car is so NOISY). These examples are unending because it is an unapologetic premise nowadays: racing is just a marketing tool, nothing more, nothing to get excited about.

They're involved with racing because they have to be, but if it went away tomorrow and they could still make their marketing targets they wouldn't miss it one bit.

grpb wrote: nary a peep of the high ups inside demanding (as is their right) a turn behind the wheel.

You might end up with a wrecked car and execs who like racing less (or more, but probably less)

alfadriver wrote: Here's a different take.... Much racing is very loosely based on road cars, and a vast majority isn't at all- f1, indy, LeMan's P cars... etc... Now there are some very great rally road cars- Mini, Escort, WRX, Evo, Focus RS, and I'm sure there are more. But the truly legendary rally cars are more exotics than road cars- Scorpion, Alpine, Audi, RS2000, 959, GTO, etc. Can rules be written that cars that are very loosely road legal cars be developed for Rallying and be reasonable? My opinion of the current best idea for leveling- the fuel flow limiter- so you get to use X potential energy. That way the fans don't need to see some kind of restrictor, the rules can be more leaning toward production based (P2) or wild out of the box (F1), and span a pretty wide margin of real cost benefits. Especially if an investment can span more than one series- some of the cooler, but not so sucessful, distance cars used F1 motors- Ferrari, Cosworth, Alfa (vice versa), etc. If I can P2 a powertrain, can I WRC with it, as well? Just going off on ideas... none of which matter much.

The GTO (I assume the 288 GTO) is an odd example of a legendary rally car, as it never actually competed in rally. The 959 didn't much either. Now, the Stratos - I'd call that a legend. And a successful one at that. Same with the Integrale.

You haven't really been able to buy a competitive WRC car for some time. Well, yes, you could get Prodrive or M-Sport to build you one. But cars like the WRX or Mitsubishi Evo (back when they were in Group N), you're right. There's no equivalent. Even the Focus RS was mostly a body kit, it was FWD instead of the AWD rally cars.

I think you you want homologation back so we end up with oddballs like the Integrale, the RS2000, Escort Cosworth and the 323 GTX. Because it was homologation rules that gave us those cars (and the 288 GTO and 959), not a loose ruleset. And I'd like to see that. It would probably have to be combined with looser powertrain rules so that manufacturers can use engines they have on the shelf and that have already been through approval.

But that will only sell a small handful of cars. A couple of hundred in most cases. For the public, it's the visual connection that matters. I'll admit that there's a good chance my parents drive a Subaru because the company's work in WRC back in the mid 90's caught their attention. But they don't drive an Impreza Turbo WRX STI Phase III R-Spec or whatever the roadgoing version was. They have a Legacy wagon, their second. Rally got their attention and into the showroom but there wasn't a connection between what they bought and what was being raced other than a boxer engine and all wheel drive.

I'd certainly like to see a more open rule set because technical innovation is interesting. Heck, it's why I like to race in things like the Open Track Challenge and Targa Newfoundland instead of Spec Miata. But if a more restrained ruleset means more participation, I'm good with that.

So, who's following Sardegna? I think it's a microcosm of what we can expect next year :)

Keith Tanner wrote: So, who's following Sardegna? I think it's a microcosm of what we can expect next year :)

Loeb stopping by and kicking ass?

Yup.

Hirvonen right behind him. Petter sitting in third. Latvala looking good in qualifying but then breaking a wheel.

How the IRC?? Worth watching?

Repteel wrote: How the IRC?? Worth watching?

You could just watch every single rally broadcast on the face of the planet...

http://www.youtube.com/user/MotorsportFunCyprus2/videos

WRC, IRC, CRC, ARC, APRC, BRC, and on and on...

grpb wrote:

HiTempguy wrote: The Japanese suits for Subaru and Mitsubishi Canada didn't seem to mind. Same with Yokohama.

These examples are unending because it is an unapologetic premise nowadays: racing is just a marketing tool, nothing more, nothing to get excited about. They're involved with racing because they have to be, but if it went away tomorrow and they could still make their marketing targets they wouldn't miss it one bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

Loeb was leading Rally Italia Sardegna by 1.1s when he hit trouble, damaging his Citroen DS3 WRC’s steering striking a rock at the beginning of day 2, Hirvonen is now in the lead.

Hirvonen is being uncool by not crashing in Sardegna. Everyone else is doing it. Gonna be a lot of new faces in the top 10.