In reply to Apexcarver :
Smack dab in the middle of this right now. Did valve cover gaskets on the wife's Lexus IS, got everything back together and the power steering ECU somehow lost calibration.
I have to take it into the dealer to have it calibrated, I spend the $200 and they tell me "we can't calibrate the steering because the daylight sensor is throwing a code."
What? Modern cars are idiotic, and this particular example is a 15 year old car!
I bought a 2001 Toyota Corolla brand new with the intention to keep it for 7 to 10 years and replace it. In 2010 I bought a 1988 BMW M5 with the intent to sell the Corolla and drive that full time. Cue learning about E28 M5 possible failures and the regular old car scares (unfounded as it turns out) I kept the Corolla around so I had something that I could fall back on if the BMW had to be down for repair for any length of time. In 2018 I was no longer driving either car to work because I got a job that had a work van that I commuted in. Then the E28 M5 market prices rose a lot so I sold the BMW and bought a motorcycle for my cool fast machine. I never sold the Corolla. It runs and drives perfectly and everything works. 22 years later with 235,000 miles on it, I love the relative simplicity of it versus new cars and see no reason to part with it since I still enjoy owning it. It's still my backup car since I'm trying to only ride the bike as transportation aside from my work van. That's working out pretty well. So I'll probably just keep the Corolla forever and not worry too much about it.
The 2010 CTSV 6spd manual w/172k is awaiting a complete third member replacement.....rebush the rear suspension.......new clutch....and tearing the dash apart to reach the gizmo that actuates the HVAC zones.....oh and checking for the gas smell at the tank while the diff is out .
dculberson said:I've seen enough super rusty 50s-80s Mercedes and Rolls and BMW to know that "forever car" was never a thing. It was mostly marketing.
Even the "stainless steel" Delorean had a mild steel structural backbone that rusted terribly.
Then you have cars like corvette c1-c3 that they reproduce the chassis to be able to replace it.
It would be interesting to index what cars are supported enough to entirely build a new car. I know 60's mustang and Camaros, spridget, I think MGB, and probably a few years of Corvette... What else? I think xke?
Delorean? But isn't it a lot of parts leftover from 80s production?
In reply to Apexcarver :
Austin/Rover Minis. As long as you have a VIN plate you can pretty much build from from catalog.
I think the modern equivalent would have to be a fairly reliable high volume enthusiast car. A recent Corvette might work. Enough people own them, want to own them, and want to keep them running that the manufacturer and aftermarket should keep you in parts for quite some time. I don't know if the Vette has this, but it is also nice when the owners figure out more pointed repairs like replacing a $0.50 resistor instead of a $1,200 module.
In reply to MrJoshua :
Yeah that's a thing I mean the Ferraris they spend like $8,000 for an electrical engineer to pour over at existing circuit board to figure out why it stopped working to replace the transistor the transistors two cents but the work to figure it out is $7,999. The more popular vehicles like the Corvette they publicize or at least amortize the expense of figuring it out.
By the way I used to sit next to a guy that was big in the Ferrari world at work and those are actual numbers that I've heard to keep a 90s Ferrari running
My buddy drove a Saturn until there was pretty much nothing left.
He could have had the engine rebuilt when it started smoking badly at almost 500,000 km but it would have cost more than the car was worth.
At some point the repair bills will begin to add up to more than you're comfortable with.
In reply to NOHOME :
Every car is a forever car if you have forever money. Otherwise, no car in history has ever been a forever car. And anyone that thinks forever cars existed, are driven by nostalgia and not reality.
dculberson said:I've seen enough super rusty 50s-80s Mercedes and Rolls and BMW to know that "forever car" was never a thing. It was mostly marketing.
Even the "stainless steel" Delorean had a mild steel structural backbone that rusted terribly.
it was mild steel?
I did a good amount of work on a DeLorean and one of the annoying things was that the frame was stainless steel, which meant none of the fasteners wanted to come out because stainless galls like taffy and heat only makes it worse.
Maybe it was only the rear arms?
Anyway I still have a lingering hatred of odd diameter Metric fasteners.
calteg said:In reply to Apexcarver :
Smack dab in the middle of this right now. Did valve cover gaskets on the wife's Lexus IS, got everything back together and the power steering ECU somehow lost calibration.
I have to take it into the dealer to have it calibrated, I spend the $200 and they tell me "we can't calibrate the steering because the daylight sensor is throwing a code."
What? Modern cars are idiotic, and this particular example is a 15 year old car!
Contrast that to 1980, where you are talking about a 1965 something being used as a DD. Certainly happened, but I'm betting on a relative basis, the Lexus is in much better condition than the 1965 whatever back in 1980.
And I'm not suggesting that the frustration you face isn't real, but it's not replacing a head gasket or constantly feeding the coolant system hoping that you don't have a disaster. Let alone rust. Or the requirement that the 1965 car has a ton more required upkeep to keep it running- like points/ignition or regular carb work. Or feeding it oil as the rings and valve seals start going away.
I really don't have any clue when my Alfa was stopped being used as nominal transportation- but I got it as ~100k miles. Thankfully, it spent most of it's life w/o rust, but the powertrain was kind of a mess- the trans broke within the year of us buying it, and the engine was pretty darned tired. Contrast that with my Miata, that I drove almost every single day to work (not counting the work cars that I took home) over 15 years and got 200k miles. Outside of the rust (the Alfa would have dissappeard quickly here in Michigan had I treated it the same), it's biggest issue that wasn't caused by me was the PCV system blowing the valve cover gasket. Sure, the bushings are shot- but it's 200k miles.
What sucks for new cars is that what seems like minor issues are stopping them- not rust, or head gaskets, or wheels falling off, or chronic electrical shorts, etc- sensors go out, or something seemingly simple like that.
frenchyd said:In reply to NOHOME :
Perhaps it might be cars like my MGTD I got it in the summer of 1962 owned it since 60 years and counting
I'd like to read the timeline of that car's life. I bet there are some great memories wrapped up in that story.
Apexcarver said:It would be interesting to index what cars are supported enough to entirely build a new car. I know 60's mustang and Camaros, spridget, I think MGB, and probably a few years of Corvette... What else? I think xke?
C10 trucks
Jeep Wranglers (older ones)
LR Defenders
I believe those can all be built from the ground up using catalog parts.
I think the microchip is going to be the big disabler going forward. Not too many ECUs on cars these days where replacing a capacitor or re-flowing the solder is gonna return them to service. Eventually it's the NLA ECUs that will retire even the most meticulously maintained automobile. Maybe. Some of those retirements will depend on which ECU E36 M3s the bed, and will depend on how many features and functions can be lived without in a forever car.
Fortunately there are smart people out there figuring out things like megasquirt etc that may also figure out things like how to hack (to make an exact copy of) the stability control ECU for example. I mean, in modern cars there's so much interaction and dependence between ECUs, it really comes to your definition of "forever car" in terms of "percent of OE function that still functions or I'm willing and able to live without."
My 79 Mercedes would have been a forever car had we not raced it. As simple electrical components fail, they can easily be replaced or retrofitted. The mechanicals are robust. The engine and trans understressed. Just have to keep it from rusting, and thankfully it lives in the south.
I'm looking to buy a new car in 2023 and I do worry about it not lasting forever. Specially the touch screens and computer parts. Mechanically I'm sure it'll last even longer than my 335000 mile Cherokee has so far.
I have owned lots of old cars and aside from better rust protection, I prefer most of them to a modern car.
Modern cars contain highly specialized electronics that will not be available in the long term. Manufacturers are only required to provide parts for a car during the warranty period - after that you are reliant on whatever you can find in NOS stuff. GM had to recall and wreck several cars after the Japanese tidal wave/earthquake in 2011 made it impossible to source some of those specialized electronic parts needed to do warranty repairs.
I wouldn't trade the rust resistance (hey - a Ziebart job can remedy that) for the ability to keep my cars running fo decades with after market parts. Need a set of points for a 1950s MG? No problem. Need a unique electronic module for your 2017 sports car? Forget about it once existing parts run out.
I think that you will get in trouble with any car past 1980s or maybe 1990s - trouble that can't be easily remedied if no pars source exists.
I mean if it weren't for the rust factor, a car like my Integra is a good example of what is close to a forever car today. Simple engine management, not a lot of fancy stuff, solid parts availability, and a solid powertrain. It's got 225K on it. A file full of receipts for repairs. Like Keith's example, I drive it all the time without any tools or the feeling that I need tools.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
If you're serious I can write about it. I think the most interesting bit is the time it spent in Japan. ( which I only have hints of)!
In reply to BoxheadTim :
And you can also buy repro vin plates.
All this "black boxes are scary" stuff has been parroted for a couple of decades. And the aftermarket has provided when there's demand. Part of this perception comes from wrenchers who only know mechanical things and don't have/aren't willing to get into the electronics.
Need to get deep into diagnostics or code a new module? There may very well be a tool for that available. I've got the software to turn a laptop onto a full 2000-era BMW service suite should I choose. Want to scan the ABS or BCM codes on an ND Miata? Forscan has your back. But if your mind is still used to working on points, it's going to see scary and mysterious and impossible.
NLA parts have always been a thing. Try owning an MGB GT instead of a ragtop, for example. A set of stupid expensive taillights is just a matter of a low production car with a unique part. Sure, they might be electronic inside but the availability problem would remain regardless.
WillG80 said:Apexcarver said:It would be interesting to index what cars are supported enough to entirely build a new car. I know 60's mustang and Camaros, spridget, I think MGB, and probably a few years of Corvette... What else? I think xke?
C10 trucks
Jeep Wranglers (older ones)
LR Defenders
I believe those can all be built from the ground up using catalog parts.
Jaguar's. Parts are readily available new from Moss Motors, Welsh and others, body parts from Martin Robbley in England. Considering the prices XKE's are selling for, the body is cheap!
Early MGT series. TC, TD, TF, & MGA, Again Moss Motors and others. For parts. Body parts. Gulp! A new fender? Time to take out a second mortgage on your house. Plus in England there is a very active group for TA& TB and a quiet little group for the J2
One that nobody is mentioning is the Morris Minor 1000. Including three sources for wood kits on the Traveler (woodie)
OH! Ford model T, A, And 32 Pretty much whatever your heart desires.
Air cooled VW's I assume they'd have sources I don't know. Anyone?
Keith Tanner said:All this "black boxes are scary" stuff has been parroted for a couple of decades. And the aftermarket has provided when there's demand. Part of this perception comes from wrenchers who only know mechanical things and don't have/aren't willing to get into the electronics.
Need to get deep into diagnostics or code a new module? There may very well be a tool for that available. I've got the software to turn a laptop onto a full 2000-era BMW service suite should I choose. Want to scan the ABS or BCM codes on an ND Miata? Forscan has your back. But if your mind is still used to working on points, it's going to see scary and mysterious and impossible.
NLA parts have always been a thing. Try owning an MGB GT instead of a ragtop, for example. A set of stupid expensive taillights is just a matter of a low production car with a unique part. Sure, they might be electronic inside but the availability problem would remain regardless.
To me, the era of really questionable electronics was many decades ago, when computers were still being figured out how to make. And people extrapolate the limited info from 30 years ago to brand new things.
And mechanically, people do the same- the angst against turbos for gas engines because of reasons are not shared with the exact same components on diesels. People think a GTDI motor is super unreliable when the exact same thing on a diesel should last 300k miles without breaking a sweat. The only difference is the ignition system that starts the flame.
Will they be a weak point, sure. But they really were on old cars, too. The difference is that some people can change their own wiring problems or swap the alternator parts. Can't deal with sending their black box off to let someone else fix it for them.
2013 Mazda 2 Sport, purchased new.
194000 miles
All mine.
Just replaced the knock sensor. I've done brakes, wheel bearings, shocks, struts, springs, control arms, oil pan (rust), and regular maintenance every 6000 for oil changes. Done the trans oil about 40000 ago. Replaced the coolant at least once. Only changed the brake fluid about 4 times. Gotta do it again. Need to replace the rear wiper motor. I've pulled it off a few times to take the mechanism apart and remove rust on the pivot that caused it to seize up. Will find a lower mileage replacement.
Feels like it's been forever. Still on the original clutch, exhaust, timing chain. Have not had to deal with any issues beyond problems I created myself (rerouting the engine harness when installing the Corksport intake and it wore thru the Canbus wires. Oops).
I see no getting rid of it any time soon. Not the least because it's been the most reliable car I've ever owned and the price of a new car is prohibitive at this time.
And all this being driven year round in snow, ice, rain, and sunshine. Autocross. Ice Time Trials. And general hooning around Vermont on the back roads (I love the fact you can turn off the stability and traction control).
Keith Tanner said:All this "black boxes are scary" stuff has been parroted for a couple of decades. And the aftermarket has provided when there's demand. Part of this perception comes from wrenchers who only know mechanical things and don't have/aren't willing to get into the electronics.
Need to get deep into diagnostics or code a new module? There may very well be a tool for that available. I've got the software to turn a laptop onto a full 2000-era BMW service suite should I choose. Want to scan the ABS or BCM codes on an ND Miata? Forscan has your back. But if your mind is still used to working on points, it's going to see scary and mysterious and impossible.
NLA parts have always been a thing. Try owning an MGB GT instead of a ragtop, for example. A set of stupid expensive taillights is just a matter of a low production car with a unique part. Sure, they might be electronic inside but the availability problem would remain regardless.
There are a whole groups of people looking for shortages of NLA parts. Waiting for demand to pass the fabrication set up point.
I've driven past 4 MGB. GTs that were parts cars. Want taillights? Call Mark Brandow at Quality coaches in Minneapolis.
It's really more of a matter of connections for some things.
But yes Black boxes are getting scary.
Jaguar's from the mid 1970's have a ECU of extremely limited production. Maybe 3000 a year. Spread all over the world. AJ6 engineering in England used to resolder them and could even pull defective resistors / capacitors etc. but he was getting old years ago and I no longer see his ads anyplace.
OK replace the ECU with Megasquirt etc? Pretty fundamental system.
Then some versions had totally different units and volumes of 10-20?
Maybe that's for the better?
In reply to Keith Tanner :
We (they) fear electronics/black boxes in their cars but not with every single thing in their home? I'm reality, modern electronics are easy to fix and easy to diagnose, if you're willing to learn. The internet makes it so. Our TV's and phones can go on forever if we don't wreck them. The only thing that could be a hinderence are SAS type features. I think the true fear is the potential learning curve. If I had the appropriate software, I could probably fix anything on modern cars. Maybe that's why I lean towards Ford because of Forscan and modern Mercedes you can buy an SDS clone for under v$1k and literally test and touch every single feature and component in the vehicle from the tip of your fingers.
What I hate? Is tight knuckle clearance.
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