How about treat it kinda like a pit stop, stop the cars in pit lane, once red flag is lifted, those cars that are undamaged proceed to exit as normal and those that need service pull in to do so?
How about treat it kinda like a pit stop, stop the cars in pit lane, once red flag is lifted, those cars that are undamaged proceed to exit as normal and those that need service pull in to do so?
johndej said:How about treat it kinda like a pit stop, stop the cars in pit lane, once red flag is lifted, those cars that are undamaged proceed to exit as normal and those that need service pull in to do so?
There isn't really room to do that before the pit stalls at many tracks (Monaco being the prime example), and I'm not sure having a standing start restart in the pit lane is a great idea from a safety standpoint either. :)
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:ztnedman1 said:kevlarcorolla said:Am I the only one that thinks red flag should mean no touchy the car including tires?.
If you can show you have a puncture from running over crap sure but otherwise it just screws with virtually any strategy options.
I like they can touch the car/change tires etc. I also think that any work or tires should send you to the back of the grid.
As with the "close the pits during a yellow flag" argument, preventing tire swaps during a red flag does not make the race more fair, it just changes who gets screwed.
You need to allow teams to change damaged tires without penalty, doing otherwise is unsafe. Once you have a "tires that have been damaged can be replaced" rule, you now have incentive for drivers to purposely drive over debris during a red flag so that they can get a free tire change. The current rule is imperfect, but IMHO it's the best option available.
So send them to the back? If you get a puncture during the race you are headed that way anyways. A red currently neutralizes the race making it rather bland. Most teams are just going to do the same thing so the net change probably would be naught, but having some potential strategy would be nice vs what we have.
ztnedman1 said:So send them to the back? If you get a puncture during the race you are headed that way anyways. A red currently neutralizes the race making it rather bland. Most teams are just going to do the same thing so the net change probably would be naught, but having some potential strategy would be nice vs what we have.
If you have a tire that's damaged but not yet punctured, you're now incentivizing the team to do the unsafe thing and keep running on it. That's just a bad idea in general.
As I said above, there is no perfect solution to a red flag condition, whatever you do you're going to gift some people an advantage and screw the others. Letting people change tires freely is the least bad, because it affords all of the teams an opportunity to resolve (without penalty) any safety problems that might have occurred due to the situation that triggered the red flag.
BTW, 20 years ago a red flag in the first 2 laps meant that drivers who had crashed in the red flag incident could take the restart in the spare car!
Regarding red flags, you could let the teams change tires but they can only change to the compound they were running at the time, or allow them to change tires but it does not count for their mandatory use of two compounds
loosecannon said:Regarding red flags, you could let the teams change tires but they can only change to the compound they were running at the time, or allow them to change tires but it does not count for their mandatory use of two compounds
I'm down for that.
Is it possible Max let the Mercs by (by that I mean, didn't fight too hard) so he could entertain himself in the race?
loosecannon said:Regarding red flags, you could let the teams change tires but they can only change to the compound they were running at the time, or allow them to change tires but it does not count for their mandatory use of two compounds
Except I don't think the "must use two different compounds" rule has anything to do with tires but is actually a "must make at least one pit stop" rule to enhance the show a bit.
The whole red-flag situation is a bit frustrating, but I don't think there's any good way around it. Just like you can get caught out with a safety car a lap after you've made your own stop and now your rivals up the road get a "free" stop, the red flag slices both ways. As long as we don't have any more intentional crashing or stopping to cause a red, I think it just has to be accepted as one of those variables that can punish some and help others.
In reply to wae :
The two compound rule is more than just "must make a pit stop", it ensures some performance disparity at different times of the race to make things more interesting. I think it's a dumb rule technically but it does seem to work as intended.
In reply to jmabarone :
My take is that the Red Bull is optimized for top speed to the detriment of both low speed handling and tyre warming ability. Max knew he didn't have to fight for first at the start because as soon as his tires were warm and they unlocked the DRS, he could retake the front with ease.
Anyone want to comment about Massa's possible lawsuit about the 2008 championship? Allegedly, the higher ups in F1 knew about crashgate before it happened, and had Alonso been thrown out, the point Massa would get would change the results.
alfadriver said:Anyone want to comment about Massa's possible lawsuit about the 2008 championship? Allegedly, the higher ups in F1 knew about crashgate before it happened, and had Alonso been thrown out, the point Massa would get would change the results.
No idea on which country it would be filed in but there is likely a statute of limitations.
In reply to L5wolvesf :
If they're not going to change 2021 due to rule violations, they're sure not gonna care about 2008.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to L5wolvesf :
If they're not going to change 2021 due to rule violations, they're sure not gonna care about 2008.
FIA isn't, but the specific international court of appeals that Massa filed in might. It's actually quite a fascinating case as Bernie completely admitted the sham and the premeditation so Massa has legal grounds. There is an issue with the court that has jurisdiction having no power to force it's decision on the FIA though, so he could potentially win and still not overturn the official results.
For those (like me) who've forgotten some of the specifics of the 2008 season: https://www.thedrive.com/news/felipe-massa-considers-legal-action-over-2008-f1-championship
As reported by Motorsport.com, Massa is considering a legal challenge to overturn the result of the 2008 F1 World Championship. His concerns center around the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix. In an event widely known as "Crashgate," Nelson Piquet Jr. was instructed to crash to bring out a safety car to help Fernando Alonso's race. The incident ruined Massa's race, and he finished 13th, well outside the points.
I know that some Lewis fans feel that Max's 2021 championship should have an asterisk. If Massa wins this lawsuit, should Lewis' first title have a similar one? 
I'm kidding. Kinda.
The craziest part of the Massa lawsuit, IMHO, is that he's not just asking for the offenders to be disqualified -- he actually wants them to throw out the entire race and recalculate the points totals. AFAIK that has never happened in F1 history and it's hard to see how one person intentionally crashing justifies that, even if it did result in Massa making an unplanned pitstop and creating an opportunity for his pit crew to screw up.
IMHO about the most they could do would be to disqualify Alonso (if it's shown that he knew about it, which most people suspect he did), which would have the effect of giving Hamilton 2 more points as he moves up to 2nd.
It would also give Rosberg a win for Williams.
In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
Is it different if it's a team misbehaving vs the sanctioning body? Serious question.
travellering said:In reply to jmabarone :
My take is that the Red Bull is optimized for top speed to the detriment of both low speed handling and tyre warming ability. Max knew he didn't have to fight for first at the start because as soon as his tires were warm and they unlocked the DRS, he could retake the front with ease.
That's a very logical scenario.
In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
No need for an asterisk,we know he's on his way to earning his 2nd title ;)
If the FIA investigate and confirm that F1 and FIA had evidence of team orders to crash in 2008 then they owe Massa apologies. Who knows how the rest of the season would have been affected if Massa did well in that race. So 2008 WDC isn't changing and maybe Massa gets a nice letter and Bernie gets another black mark to hopefully show his true nature.
And also, if they are going to hand out asterisks then yes 2021 and 2008 need them.
I still think the handling of Australia was a great improvement over abu Dhabi 2021 and signs of lessons learned.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
Is it different if it's a team misbehaving vs the sanctioning body? Serious question.
According to the article, there was sanctioning body shenanigans in 2008, too:
However, new comments from Bernie Ecclestone have revived Massa's interest in challenging the results. The former F1 supremo recently claimed to F1 Insider that he was aware of the Crashgate incident during the 2008 season, along with FIA President Max Mosley. According to Ecclestone, the matter was kept under wraps at the time to avoid a damaging scandal. "We had enough information in time to investigate the matter. According to the statutes, we should have canceled the race in Singapore under these conditions," said Ecclestone. He noted that had the race been scratched from the record, Massa would have been World Champion.
In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
Is he really implying that one teams shenanigans would lead to canceling an entire event? Seriously? That doesn't make much sense to me. Or that they were aware of the risk of it happening? As if it's unique to that event? Singapore was not a unique layout for a race, so that could have happened at many tracks.
The funny side effect of that statement is that it damns Mosley and Ecclestone as pretty poor managers of F1. Nice of them to admit that.
alfadriver said:The funny side effect of that statement is that it damns Mosley and Ecclestone as pretty poor managers of F1. Nice of them to admit that.
I haven't read the rules (BTW, does anyone else find it bizarre that the FIA tries to pretend it's a government by having "statues" and "courts of appeal"?), but I can't think of any other case in which they've tossed out an entire race because one team cheated.
Bernie likes to say outrageous things just to get people riled up, and that's what I put this down to.
The greatest impact would be if there is evidence that Alonso partly planned it. He should be sanctioned and excluded from the 2023 f1 season...
Ferrari is challenging Sainz's penalty from last weekend- https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari-sainz-australian-gp-penalty-right-of-review/
Advan046 said:The greatest impact would be if there is evidence that Alonso partly planned it. He should be sanctioned and excluded from the 2023 f1 season...
That's not what Bernie said though. It sounds like Alonso and Massa had no idea, it was all planned by Bernie and F1 in order to orchestrate a more exciting finish. They didn't know Ferrari and Massa were going to whiff so hard.
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