In reply to z31maniac:
If it were that easy, all of the Mercedes teams would be quicker, too- as they would have the some of the same advantage. But that's not exactly the case.
Even so, I'm fine with them buying parts and putting them together- just like the 70s, which is an era that most people really look back on with fondness. That's not nearly as straight forward as it seems. While it may define parts, it also defines compromises that you may not want.
So Haas has scored points in both of the first two races, with Romain Grosjean sitting 5th in the drivers standings, just above Sebastian Vettel. I did not see that one coming.
nderwater wrote: So Haas has scored points in both of the first two races, with Romain Grosjean sitting 5th in the drivers standings, just above Sebastian Vettel. I did *not* see that one coming.
If you watch Will's interview of him afterwards, Grosjean wasn't either!!!
alfadriver wrote: American engineers are not that bad, are they? Maybe all of that FSAE work has gone a long way.
I don't think that's the case at all. I think it's more that, although technically, anyone could read the rules and build an F1 car, there are probably a number of "secrets" that you only get by being in it. Plus, the F1 restrictions on testing, make it even more difficult. If you could do all the testing (simulated, wind tunnel, on track, etc) that you wanted, a team wouldn't have to depend as much on buying parts from others.
Regardless, it's an impressive feat and obvious that they've surprised a bunch of people. I just hope they can keep that momentum going.
-Rob
Grosjean is over the moon with genuine joy. I've really come to like him, he's come a long way as a driver and he's an interesting interview.
rob_lewis wrote: Plus, the F1 restrictions on testing, make it even more difficult. If you could do all the testing (simulated, wind tunnel, on track, etc) that you wanted, a team wouldn't have to depend as much on buying parts from others. Regardless, it's an impressive feat and obvious that they've surprised a bunch of people. I just hope they can keep that momentum going. -Rob
Heard.... The reason HAAS didn't jump in for 2015 may have been testing. The rumor is that since they didn't join for 2015, OR buy an existing team allowed them "unlimited testing". At least that was one story line I've read.....
In reply to rob_lewis:
They have clearly stated that they are taking more of an American approach to solving this problem. And from an engineering and team work approach- I know there's a big difference between Europeans (especially brits) and Americans.
About that buying thing- that's a double edged sword. Yes, you can get good parts for a proper foundation. But you also have to accept the compromises that the designer put into them- which may lead to a set of compromises that you don't want to accept. As I've posted just before.
It's also interesting to note that Haas thinks that the tech should be more public- not for the sake of sharing between teams, but so the fans can appreciate the beauty in the work.
oldeskewltoy wrote:rob_lewis wrote: Plus, the F1 restrictions on testing, make it even more difficult. If you could do all the testing (simulated, wind tunnel, on track, etc) that you wanted, a team wouldn't have to depend as much on buying parts from others. Regardless, it's an impressive feat and obvious that they've surprised a bunch of people. I just hope they can keep that momentum going. -RobHeard.... The reason HAAS didn't jump in for 2015 may have been testing. The rumor is that since they didn't join for 2015, OR buy an existing team allowed them "unlimited testing". At least that was one story line I've read.....
I think it's that they did not want to take on the compromises that other teams would have given them. Better to define your own system in your own time than to rush and take someone else's system that's not up to snuff.
Haas was called out for not buying one of the folding teams- assuming that would be a better path. Now we are seeing that it was a good decision to stick to their original plan, and not take the "easy route".
Makes sense - buying a backmarker team nets you their backmarker car.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to rob_lewis: They have clearly stated that they are taking more of an American approach to solving this problem. And from an engineering and team work approach- I know there's a big difference between Europeans (especially brits) and Americans.
Genuinely curious. What would be considered an American approach v. a European approach? The idea of using what's out there to get a "head start" and develop off of that? I'd love to know how they're trying to approach it differently if there is an article or something.
I hadn't considered the issues with using parts from another team and how that might hinder your own development. I wonder how much input Haas had with Dallara on the chassis design?
Regardless, I think that they're approach (besides the fact that they're doing well) of starting with as many parts as you can makes the most sense. Basically, creating a baseline in an area you don't know and working off of that.
-Rob
In reply to rob_lewis:
It's a team work thing- in Europe, your ideas are listened to based purely on your time at your position. Whereas in the US, mostly, a good idea is accepted from anyone.
I was really stunned to see this when I worked with AML in the mid-late 90's- really took the shine off of a few companies.
Basically, I worked at F for less than 5 years, but had no problem voicing my opinion and having that listened to. There were a couple of engineers who were roughly the same as me at their companies- and they never got listened to. And got all of the "monkey" work.
As I see it, it's far more likely that someone new graduate from an US FSAE team would be listened to more at Haas than a new graduate from a EU FSAE team at any of the other teams.
It's a heavily classed system in Europe. Not here.
And that matters a lot. Especially when debugging concepts.
What I think would be interesting to have a joint venture between Ford (or maybe Gvt Motors) and Northrup Grumman (or one of the other aerospace companies) to create an American constructor.
FYI, I was watching the Channel 4 coverage last night. Looks like a winner - not just during the race, but the pre-race show has Mark Webber, Suzi Wolff and DC. Let's just say they have access damn near everywhere, including being able to grab a Red Bull steering wheel on a few minutes' notice so Suzi can explain and demonstrate the new start procedure compared to the previous.
Also, Webber and Vettel seem to get along. Webber and Horner, not so much. It's also fun to hear Webber interview Ricciardo.
Keith Tanner wrote: FYI, I was watching the Channel 4 coverage last night. Looks like a winner - not just during the race, but the pre-race show has Mark Webber, Suzi Wolff and DC. Let's just say they have access damn near everywhere, including being able to grab a Red Bull steering wheel on a few minutes' notice so Suzi can explain and demonstrate the new start procedure compared to the previous. Also, Webber and Vettel seem to get along. Webber and Horner, not so much. It's also fun to hear Webber interview Ricciardo.
How are you watching Channel 4 (I'm assuming BBC?). Via VPN spoofing or is it somehow available to us Yanks?
-Rob
Channel 4 is not BBC, but they've now got the British terrestrial rights. A lot of the same team as the Beeb, including the same theme song for the opening.
Channel4.com with a UK IP address. As with the BBC, they have replays for a month after the race and I think they might have live race streaming - we'll see.
Here's the team.
Nice sweater, Hulk!
Okay, that's just cool. No matter what happens on the track, these guys are all members of a pretty exclusive club and have a lot in common. Not many people know what it's like to be an F1 driver.
etifosi wrote: Nice sweater, Hulk!
Awesome pic!! But who's missing besides Grosjean?
Any idea when/where this was taken? I'm assuming it was done by Nico.
NinjaEdit (I should search before posting): http://www.foxsports.com/motor/story/f1-china-dinner-selfie-041316
The 18 drivers pictured at the dinner are Nico Rosberg, Daniel Ricciardo, Fernando Alonso, Nico Hulkenberg, Valtteri Bottas, Max Verstappen, Daniil Kvyat, Esteban Gutierrez, Sergio Perez, Renault reserve driver Esteban Ocon, Marcus Ericson, Felipe Massa, Felipe Nasr, Carlos Sainz Jr., Pascal Wehrlein, Sebastian Vettel, Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton. All that are missing are Kimi Raikkonen, Romain Grosjean, Renault drivers Kevin Magnussen and Jolyon Palmer, Rio Haryanto and McLaren reserve driver Stoffel Vandoorne.
-Rob
Rob,
The boys all met for dinner yesterday......here's Roman & Kimi!
18 F1 racers meet for dinner...You'll be amazed at what happens next!
Lewis gets to chase again. Five place grid penalty for a transmission change. Will he be able to get past the red cars this week? Ooooh, the suspense!
In reply to Streetwiseguy:
Good!
Not being a dick, just hoping that it makes for another exciting race.
Iceman.... yeah passed out like a little baby..... 
and on another note...
U of Sheffield study reported: Of current drivers, Fernando Alonso is the highest ranked driver, and both he and Sebastian Vettel are ahead of reigning champion Lewis Hamilton.
https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/greatest-formula-one-driver-ever-1.567358
Basically, statistical bench racing.
What it doesn't show is how the drivers deal with different cars. The recent hybrid changeover saw that, where Vettel stumbled badly as Ricciardo shone on the new hardware. These new cars are very different to drive than the old V8s. I expect it was much the same story the last time turbos appeared and then disappeared, and also the shift from front engine to rear, and the dawn of the aero age. Those step changes in vehicle technology would throw a wrench into all those pretty numbers.
Remember the old saying. Lies, damn lies and statistics.
It's almost irrellivant trying to compare Fangio to Hamilton. There is nothing in common with the era's except the cars still have 4 wheels and a steering wheel. Moss was better than Fangio is some areas, but not F1. There have been DTM drivers who don't do that well in F1 and great F1 drivers who are back of the grid fodder in DTM. Does that make them suck or good. There are fewer and fewer all rounders these days as well. Does Kimi (the 07 WDC don't forget) suck as he was never a real play in NASCAR? I bet there is more in common with a modern NASCAR and a 50's F1 car than a modern F1 car.
HAving said that, HAmilton and Alonso both say they rate each other higher than all the others. I've never been anti Vettle, but I rate him higher for what he's doing at Ferrari both in and out of the cockpit than I did at Red Bull. Also as amazing a driver as Shumi and Senna were, i can't rate them as highly as other due to their dirty tricks. If you were to rate drivers over the last 30 years I do agree putting Prost at the top though. As a Brit I couldn't root for him at the time (even as a McLaren driver) as he beat 'our Nige', but with age, hindsight and understanding I rate him as THE driver of the 80's and 90's
I agree that Vettel has developed as a driver. He's better at passing and obviously better at managing a modern F1 car than he was when he was winning world championships from the front. Having to mix it up in traffic has done him a bunch of good and he's developed a really good attitude. We now have an outside cat named after him, which is high praise in our house.
Alonso and Grosjean are also outside cats, while Jenson Button is an inside cat.
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