Formula One - 2017

Tom_Spangler wrote:

Double_Wishbone wrote: Consider timing at the beginning of careers as well. Lewis started with McLaren at a great time to do so. Rosberg, also a championship winner with Mercedes, had a long career before attaining even a grand prix victory. He drove for Mercedes before they contested for podiums. Lewis won races in his debut year, had a string of podiums, and finished runner up in the championship. Very impressive and no matter what anyone can say about him, he is a phenomenal driver, but timing played a very important part in how his career unfolded.

You could make the argument that being able to pick the right teams at the right times has always been a critical-if-overlooked "skill" for F1 drivers. There were some folks that raised their eyebrows at Lewis when he jumped from McLaren to Mercedes. That sure proved to be the right move, though. Alonso, for all his talent, went to Ferrari when it was competitive, but not quite equal to the top teams. Then he left for McLaren-Honda, and we all know how that worked out. Then there are the guys who simply seem to bend a team to their will. Schumacher at Ferrari, for instance.

I would be inclined to agree. I wonder how much the driver's agents and team personnel changes have to do with this as well. Every now and the I read about a key member of a team departing and then the team performance decreases, despite no changes in sponsors or drivers. Just like finding a job in the real world, that bit of networking might help a driver down the road as well.

Has anyone read Mark Webber's book? I liked it, and it painted a pretty neat picture of how a driver utilizes this "skill" of negotiating with teams.

I was unaware of Webber's book. Off to Amazon...

Hamilton scores pole #69 Lewis Hamilton scores pole #69 on a wet racetrack in Italy. Hamilton is still fairly young, could he make it to 100 poles? Ferraris qualify 7th, 8th. Ooops.

Fun race.

Ocon and Stroll did the best they could.

Ricciardo's passes are often entertaining.

Bottas scrambling ahead of Kimi was fun.

I've said in the past that Hamilton is good at controlling the gap and only going as fast as needed to win the race. Apparently the exception is when it's time to lay down the smackdown on Ferrari at Monzda. Between the two Mercedes running off and hiding in the distance and that formation lap on the cooldown, that was one clear statement.

So, after Ferrari's lost weekend, there's three points between Vettel and Hamilton. The last time Ferrari had a legitimate shot at a title, Alonso and company blew a 40 point lead and Vettel took the title with Red Bull. Seems to me Hamilton definitely has the stronger ride and it's all in his hands whether or not Mercedes wins another championship. Anyone think Vettel can pull this one off?

In reply to ncjay:

Vettel, yes. Ferrari, I'm doubtful.

The Mercs are overall better cars and the drivers more consistent. Vettel is pretty damn consistent, too but Kimi, not so much. We'll if Singapore proves that the red cars are actually that much better on slow circuits where power isn't as much an issue.

One thing is certain: if Ferrari loses both the driver's and constructor's championships, "Help Wanted" signs are going up in Maranello.

If Merc wins at Singapore, the Tifosi wailing will be horrible to hear.

Lots of talk about Red Bull having a legitimate shot next week. I will believe it when I see it.

Any news yet to confirm Renault engines in MacLaren?

The title race is still close enough that one bad race can take someone completely out of the hunt. Even Mercedes isn't infallible mechanically. I love that it's basically tied at this point. It's up to Hamilton to lose it, though.

I do find it interesting that Vettel has never won when starting out of the top 3. I want to see him break that streak.

Streetwiseguy wrote: Any news yet to confirm Renault engines in MacLaren?

I did a search and saw a reference to a deadline to announce an engine change having been passed with no declaration from McLaren...

stroker wrote:

Streetwiseguy wrote: Any news yet to confirm Renault engines in MacLaren?

I did a search and saw a reference to a deadline to announce an engine change having been passed with no declaration from McLaren...

I read somewhere that they were probably going to waive that rule for McLaren & Honda. I mean, the alternative is to tell McLaren that they can't race next year, and I don't see that happening.

Based on Alonso's comments I get the jist that McLaren Honda will return to F1 in 2018 in exchange for Alonso getting the green light to go to Indy again and Le Mans and probably even IMSA races. Honda will gift McLaren more services or money. And Honda will finally get it right.

In reply to Streetwiseguy:

Yes I think Red bull will be the top runners in Singapore. They just seem to make some stupid mistake when they have the advantage. Hamilton and Vettel will fight for third. Alonso will be fighting for fifth with Ocon.

The Red bull just seems to have a great racing package but are just not getting enough power down the straights.

Oh you thought I forgot about Bottas and Raikkonen? Nope they take each other out at turn 2!

In reply to Keith Tanner:

That formation lap was ridiculous! I loved it and the camera caught the sheen off the cars just right. They were intentionally holding folks behind. Definitely showing off for the opposing team's fans. Good to see and I am sure it is all in jest. The team seems light-hearted in that way.

Also on the podium I guess I get the British humor Hamilton puts out that some find off-putting. "Yeah, firstly Mercedes power is definitely better than Ferrari power, so it worked well this weekend."

Advan046 wrote: Also on the podium I guess I get the British humor Hamilton puts out that some find off-putting. "Yeah, firstly Mercedes power is definitely better than Ferrari power, so it worked well this weekend."

I'm a Hammy fan, but that was a dick move. If I were Mercedes and Hamilton the first thing I'd have done was run some congratulations Ferrari on your 70 consecutive years in F1 stickers on the foam insert similar to what Ferrari themselves had. Then I'd have called up Nico for some quick Italian lessons and the first words out of my mouth on the podium would have been 'Happy Birthday Ferrari. Than you for the excellent fight we are having this year, we won today but it's been close all year. may the best man and team win at the end of the year' that would have changed all the boos into cheers.

Back to Quali. I have no idea what went wrong with Ferrari in Q3, but one of the things I loved was watching the incar through Curve Grande and the Parabolica. Did you notice how Hamilton, Vettle and Verstapan looked so so smooth, they never really altered their steering angle on the wheel from turn in until past they apex when they started to unwind? All the other drivers were nibbling at the wheel, correcting, changing lock and upsetting the car. The real pro's were making it look so easy. That's what's great about Monza, qualifying and the wet. I don't recall seeing Lance Stroll or Fred Alonso in car during quali, but I would have loved to have seen them.

I think Stroll has been given a hard time due to his money. He may not be a Mad Max V. but he's a young kid who's there on talent as much as money. He really needs some tuition on race craft though. I can't blame him for taking it easy on the first lap, but he really played softball and lost out. He got mugged by Ochon.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

Yes he tried to clean it up in the end with some Italian but I always find the foreign language podium showing off to be just that. I don't give bonus points when athletes try to speak American when it isn't one of their normal  languages. I don't consider it a negative either. But they way they do it on the podium is too music concert style, look I learned five words of your language!?!? 

Going into silly season things are interesting. Alonso could  go bye bye, Perez either tries to buy Force India or leave? Sauber almost certain to put any Ferrari jr driver in to replace Werhlein. Werhlein deserves a better drive somewhere. I doubt Maxy can get out of RB plus even if he does, where is better? Renault is a wild card. Palmer is likely gone but then the team isn't showing top three performance yet so who wants in? 

I just think keeping Kimi is part of Ferrari's downfall. He was good in his era. I could see that they didn't want internal conflict but he just isn't stepping up as a good number 2 either. They should have paid for Sainz to be released from TR. He has passion and makes mistakes but it is tempered with team work. 

Keith Tanner said:

I've said in the past that Hamilton is good at controlling the gap and only going as fast as needed to win the race. Apparently the exception is when it's time to lay down the smackdown on Ferrari at Monzda. Between the two Mercedes running off and hiding in the distance and that formation lap on the cooldown, that was one clear statement.

Apparently, this was actually Mercedes plan.  According to James Allen, they allowed both the works and customer teams to "damage" the engines more than normal in order to put the hurt on Ferrari at their home track.  He speculates this is to put Ferrari off-balance going into Singapore.  So perhaps the bit on the podium was something Hamilton was supposed to say?

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/09/analysis-when-f1-strategy-turns-into-gamesmanship-mercedes-vs-ferrari-needle-in-italian-grand-prix/

Yeah, it was pretty obviously intentional because it was so unusual.

Poking fun at the fans on the podium after they booed him? I'd do the same.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with anything that Merc and Hammy did.  Maybe it wasn't as sporting as it should have been, but sporting is boring.  This is entertainment, after all.  A little intrigue and even hatred makes things much more interesting.  No rules were broken, nobody was in danger, it was just a good old-fashioned smackdown, and F1 needs more of that kind of fun, IMO.

I enjoy the mental games played during a championship fight. Some guys are very good at it.

After a weekend like Lewis had, he always appears to be an almost zen-like state of happy satisfaction.  I understand that, based off the small successes I've had racing.

He is also pretty darn good at the mind games.

I think if MB get a 1-2 in Singapore Hamilton will be elated. Then he needs to keep grounded. He is probably in his best mental state/control for racing in years. If Ferrari are to hold on to their chances they need to get the car right for Singapore. 

Longshot wish for Alonso to take a safety car assisted win. 

I really hope there is still McLaren Honda in F1 next year. 

When Honda gets it right. It will be great fun. Three years of engine development isn't that bad given that they are now lower mid pack instead of dead last. 

So the scuttlebutt in the press yesterday, all rumor but very very heavy rumor, is that the first domino has fallen in the 'Free McLaren' campaign.

Supposedly, Toro Rosso has agreed to let Carlos Sainz Jr go to the works Renault team next year to keep him happy and in a competitive car since.......

Next domino will be Honda going to power Torro Rosso next year, which will allow McLaren to get Torro Rosso's Renault engine deal.  That means that someone is paying Torro Rosso a lot of money to take Honda engines next year.  Not sure if that’s just Honda, or McLaren are chipping in as well.

This helps Red Bull keep a top line driver like Sainz happy, hopefully moving him up the grid and keeping him in the Red Bull program assuming that either Mad Max or the Honey Badger will be heading to (possibly) Ferrari in 2019 when their current Red Bull Contracts expire. 

Red Bull have attempted to sell Torro Rosso over the last year or so (** See below) so this will save them a shed load of money as Honda will supposedly bring lots of $$'s with the engines.

So, who drives for Torro Rosso next year? Well with Sainz still in the fizzy sugar caffeine camp but placed at Renault so that’s one seat empty…or is it?  Red Bull want to put Pierre Gasly in to keep the Junior driver program moving up. The issue is that Honda probably want to put Nobuharu MatsuE36 M3a in F1 if they can get him enough Super License points to qualify.

That then indicates that both Joylon Palmer and Daniel Kyviat will be out of a job.......

Unless the rumor that Massa is going to retire and Palmer will replace him at Williams.

Even better, there is talk that some of this could start happening before the end of the year.

All to keep an old age whinny cry baby happy at McLaren.

** I recall that Mateschitz would like to sell Torro Rosso, but apparently when Paul Stoddart  sold Minardi Red Bull there was a clause that the team will always remain based in Faenza, Italy and all the potential purchasers wanted to move the team to the UK like all other teams except Ferrari.