FORMULA ONE - 2020

loosecannon said:

My point is that if the FIA is going to squash any innovation, what are we doing here? Let's just go the Indy Car route and have cookie cutter cars

Yes, we know they are squashing innovation..........in the name of saving money. And it's been this way for decades.

Accept it or don't watch, I guess? Us arguing with each other on here certainly isn't going to change anything.

codrus said:

loosecannon said:

I love the innovation of the DAS system but it makes me really angry when the FIA bans things like this, like they did with the mass damper or the F duct. These kinds of innovations are wonderful and not even that costly. Formula 1 cars are not even as sophisticated as a new Mazda so when someone comes up with something super cool, they should be allowed to keep it. The rule book needs to get smaller, not bigger. Yes, yes, people will say it's about cost cutting but a clever simplifying of the rules would cut costs, too. 

 

The cost isn't in the F-duct system itself, it's in the design, simulation, and testing of it.  There were also some significant questions about the safety of it -- in order to work around the "no movable aerodynamic device" rule, the drivers had to cover the duct with one hand while driving down the straight, meaning that they only had one hand on the wheel.  That's... not ideal.

 

DAS is activated by moving the wheel back and forth and they are using the force of the car and driver to do it because by the rules they cannot use hydrological power. There have to be safety concerns with that as well.  

wearymicrobe said:

codrus said:

loosecannon said:

I love the innovation of the DAS system but it makes me really angry when the FIA bans things like this, like they did with the mass damper or the F duct. These kinds of innovations are wonderful and not even that costly. Formula 1 cars are not even as sophisticated as a new Mazda so when someone comes up with something super cool, they should be allowed to keep it. The rule book needs to get smaller, not bigger. Yes, yes, people will say it's about cost cutting but a clever simplifying of the rules would cut costs, too. 

 

The cost isn't in the F-duct system itself, it's in the design, simulation, and testing of it.  There were also some significant questions about the safety of it -- in order to work around the "no movable aerodynamic device" rule, the drivers had to cover the duct with one hand while driving down the straight, meaning that they only had one hand on the wheel.  That's... not ideal.

 

DAS is activated by moving the wheel back and forth and they are using the force of the car and driver to do it because by the rules they cannot use hydrological power. There have to be safety concerns with that as well.  

No, Mercedes has been working on it nearly a year and the FIA has signed off on it so there is no safety concern. The problem is the FIA has this lame piecemeal way of limiting innovation. Instead of being proactive and coming up with a rule set that still rewards clever ideas, they wait until teams find loopholes then they scramble to close them. This isn't about DAS, though, this is about how the FIA is so poor at controlling Formula 1. The FIM (MotoGP) has a very stable set of rules that still allows even satellite teams to race for podiums (8 different winners from first 8 races a few years ago) and the bikes are not cookie cutter. Some bikes have straight 4 cylinder engines and some are V4 engines, they look different and sound different and somehow the whole field finishes on the same lap. They don't have to change the rules every few years to try to shake things up because the racing is so good already. Formula 1 could be as good but it would take a major shift in philosophy.

Regarding the rules, I think that is the inspiration of the 2021 rules making process. Ross Brawn put enough time into the process to try and maximize the loophole discovery and closure. Their will always be some edge of the language that someone can push to innovate but from how I read it, the process of making rules was updated not just the rules themselves. 

We will see.

DAS is legal and it may or may not stay on the car for performance reasons. Just because they decided to try something with the drivers experiencing real G forces doesn't mean it is a win. 

I am very interested in seeing the racing start this year.

Is Racing Point pace for real?

Will Williams be able to score points on a regular?

Will Renault fall flat AGAIN?!?!

Ferrari seems to be unsure of where they are maybe they are still 2nd or maybe they are now more likely to be 6th. Haas seems to have bought all the wrong parts from Ferrari and thus will end up behind Williams.

I know it's only testing, but Williams and Ferrari were remarkably close. Fingers crossed!

Keith Tanner said:

I know it's only testing, but Williams and Ferrari were remarkably close. Fingers crossed!

That's either great news for Williams or terrible news for Ferrari...  Most of us hope for the former, but there have been a lot of suggestions of the latter.

In reply to loosecannon :

So WRT limiting innovation- while that happens a LOT, in this case, do you really think so if it's been banned for 2021?

The more I hear about this technology, the more I think that Mercedes is the actual source of why it gets banned for 2021- they know what DAS is going to bring to the table in terms of lap times, to the point that every one is going to be forced to buy this system for their car next year.  And at that point, an innovation just became the norm.  To me, Mercedes gets the advantage of developing it for 2020, and then understand that cost containments means that forcing the entire field to have this is kind of pointless.

Since the cars this season are the last of a breed, I have been thinking of what 2021 is going to bring in terms of teams...

This is all IMHO, BTW.

Since Mercedes never left the low rake concept, they have really gotten to know suspension design for a flat car- and for F1 this really matters.  So I'm expecting that whoever Mercedes ends up being next season, they will have the basic chassis design and working concepts farther ahead than every one else.  The rest of the field will have to remind themselves how to make a flat chassis where the rear suspension isn't so much higher than it is.

Haas has a built in Aero advantage thanks to Dallara.  Dallara has been making cars using the ground effects concept for a LONG time know- center of pressure, how much air, etc- all of that Indy Car experience is going to be a BIG help for Haas.  By a long way, their team will have the most experience in how this kind of aero works.  It will be interesting to see if they can take advantage of that experience, and put all of the rest of the F1 constraints that are so very different than Indycar to good use or not.

So far, that's all I've gotten for next season.

In reply to alfadriver :

Great thoughts. I'm going to try to make F1 a priority again this season, as far as watching not just reading, because of what you mentioned. Aside from the car development, this season will be interesting to see Hamilton. I'm hoping he can win his 7th this year. 

I still vividly remember just losing my mind/screaming at the TV when he beached his car at the Chinese GP his rookie season, ending his chance to win the title. 

In reply to z31maniac :

The one thing I've never understood about this rake thing- Mercedes has always been the fastest car.  It's never been high rake.  

So who decided that high rake is THE concept for this chassis era?  People even challenge Mercedes asking why they continue to "get away with it"- as if their car is somehow slow out there.

As good as Adrian Newey is, he's not perfect.  And at least the cars that have been powered by Mercedes- Williams and Force India/ Racing Point- should have quickly seen that it was the wrong path given their power advantage.

Seems to me that the challenges of properly sealing the floor were MUCH harder than people thought.  Yet they still go after that idea...

And to me, that means Honda/Brawn/Mercedes/whoever is the hands on favorite for best 2021 chassis.

z31maniac said:

In reply to alfadriver :

I still vividly remember just losing my mind/screaming at the TV when he beached his car at the Chinese GP his rookie season, ending his chance to win the title. 

Yes! I was done screaming at the McLaren pit wall by the time he pitted. It just didn't make sense to risk so much. And so when he went wide, it just seemed expected.  But in hindsight I guess I give them a break due to mega distraction of Alonso and Hamilton fighting within the team. 

Advan046 said:

z31maniac said:

In reply to alfadriver :

I still vividly remember just losing my mind/screaming at the TV when he beached his car at the Chinese GP his rookie season, ending his chance to win the title. 

Yes! I was done screaming at the McLaren put wall by the time he pitted. It just didn't make sense to risk so much. And so when he went wide it just seemed expected.  But in hindsight I guess I give them a break due to mega distraction of Alonso and Hamilton fighting within the team. 

I remember watching Hungary quali live and thinking, "Ooohh this whole thing is about to get really spicy."

alfadriver said:

Keith Tanner said:

I know it's only testing, but Williams and Ferrari were remarkably close. Fingers crossed!

That's either great news for Williams or terrible news for Ferrari...  Most of us hope for the former, but there have been a lot of suggestions of the latter.

Either option makes me happy. Although I would like to see Leclerc in a competitive car.

Hmm, Leclerc and Hamilton as teammates at Mercedes. That could be really good. I know, Leclerc has probably been signed for 20 years or something, but I'd still like to see it.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I don't see LeClerc changing teams until he wins a few Ferrari championships.  And I honestly think he will do that- IF the Ferrari turns out to be a tough car- this season will tell us if Charles is more like Mike- and can really develop a car, or more like Vettel- who is really good when he's in the best car.  I thought Charles brought more to the team over the entire season than Seb did.

I could be very, very wrong, but given he's taking his God Father's seat (Bianchi), he's not going anywhere for a LONG time.

Yeah, it'll never happen. But this is an internet forum discussion about a series that hasn't even started yet, so I'm going to go with my imaginary team :)

I agree that Charles was a bigger asset to Ferrari in 2019 than Vettel was. They'd be crazy to let him get away.

Looks like they stripped every gram of ballast out of the Sauber before giving Kubica a glory run.

Racing point speed seems to be real. Probably solid 4th in constructors line up. Unless McLaren or another team isn't trying for speed yet. The MBs of the past had lots of quirky behavior that MB was able to work around. I wonder if, given the same quirks, can Racing Point develop solutions as fast. 

For some reason my gut is telling me that the Australia podium will be two RedBulls and Perez. 

Both Ferrari and MB will have issues. 

Advan046 said:

Looks like they stripped every gram of ballast out of the Sauber before giving Kubica a glory run.

Racing point speed seems to be real. Probably solid 4th in constructors line up. Unless McLaren or another team isn't trying for speed yet. The MBs of the past had lots of quirky behavior that MB was able to work around. I wonder if, given the same quirks, can Racing Point develop solutions as fast. 

Racing Point copied last years Mercedes in every way so, in theory, they should be as quick as last years winning car. I can't fault them for this strategy

It has been good to see Williams somewhere in the midfield in testing this year.  It is also good to see Kubica get a good run in.  However I feel Ferrari is sandbagging and trying to get the most data they can before really showing their hand.  

McLaren is going to have their hands full this year trying to keep ahead of the rest of the midfield teams.  That is where the race is going to be.

Top 3 will be the Top 3, maybe with a Ferrari / Red Bull change.  

More than all this tech talk, I'm starting to wonder about the schedule vis-a-vis the Corona virus.  We already have the China round cancelled and are seeing a large number of outbreaks in Italy.

In reply to triumph7 :

Yes fear is a powerful thing and despite the facts the Chinese GP was cancelled mostly for PR. Now that Italy has a small outbreak maybe F1 should not allow Ferrari or AlphaTauri to participate in in the first half of the season. Cancel Monza. 

The Coronavirus should not be taken lightly but we also shouldn't just get dumb and do the easy thing. 

After watching a ton of pre-season Youtube videos and just completing the 2nd season of the Netflix docuseries, I am thinking it's gonna be another year of Mercedes domination. I am hoping Ferrari is sandbagging a bit and brings the fight this year. I am thinking Force India or Target Racing or whatever they are this year is gonna be stronger than we think. I am really pulling for Lando to get some good results, seems like hes a really cool, talented kid.

Headline on Formula1.com: We're not "sandbagging", says Ferrari  

I'm looking for some real mixups in the midfield and cheering on the resurgence of Renault.

I am a year behind in the Netfilix series.  I am going to start the 2019 one today or tomorrow.  

IRT the High Rake cars, it was started with Red Bull, not sure what year, but I think it was when they were winning championships.  When RB was always fighting for the wins and always on the podium , probably when the pendulum was swinging to MB as the top dog all the teams starting using rake.  I believe it was to allow a lower wing using the car as part of the down force, thus letting them hit a hight speed on the straight.  

I am pretty hyped about this season.  I want McLaren to be fighting for podiums, but may not happen.