I think the red flag rules are good. You are free to work on the car and do anything to it other than add fuel. The race is essentially a new race with a standing start and nothing is carried forward from the previous green flag laps. The field is brought back to the pits behind a safety car and is off the track out of the way. There is a ten minute warning to the green flag. A number of teams changed tires and did repairs, Hamilton had just changed tires and didn't have the need. Beats NASCAR where if a driver gets out of the car there's a penalty. Made for a fantastic half race.
In reply to lateapexer :
The free tire change sucks. Even for a SC or VSC, there's an element of making a good stop to keep a good position, but for a red flag, there's no time penalty what so ever. That sucks bad. I don't agree with any of the work being done- as all of that kind of work should get a time penalty (being stationary when other cars are moving).
Stroll got so, so, so very lucky to not have pulled the trigger on the tire stop. If Charles had not crashed, Stroll would have been out of the points, as he would be forced to stop. Even if there was a SC, he would not have gotten the podium.
I don't even thing Mercedes should have been allowed to change their car for better cooling. They made the choice for the set up, deal with it.
My point is that everyone was free to make changes and a majority did. That Mercedes didn't was their choice, pitting under a red flag was also their choice, they tried to sneak in and got caught.
They didn't try to pit under a red flag, the pit lane was closed which is really unusual. Jensen Button said he'd never seen that sign before and he's done a couple of races. Only in Italy do they decide to push a car down the front straight instead of backing it into the protected area right behind where it stopped...
lateapexer said:
My point is that everyone was free to make changes and a majority did. That Mercedes didn't was their choice, pitting under a red flag was also their choice, they tried to sneak in and got caught.
And my point is that they should not be able to make any changes to the car at all- any teams, any changes. They can look and see what they need to change if they choose to not take part of the standing start. Free pits stops for any repairs is dumb.
It was clear after the race that nobody on the Mercedes team knew the pits were closed- so they missed that one. I hope that leads to some serious changes to the notifications- having a orange X outside of corner isn't very clear- both for the color and the location. It's odd that there are lights at the exit of the pits when the track is closed, but there's not hte same lights on the entry to have the pits closed.
Had there been a real emergency, the fact that two drivers and their teams missed that could have been a major problem. And since there were two drivers that missed it, I don't see that as sneaking at all. It wasn't clear. Making it clear for the drivers is so very easy.
I think what Mercedes missed was the red flag not the pit closed marker. More accurately I think they didn't miss anything and took advantage of being in the lead. The rule says you can make changes under a red flag so no one got a free pit stop.
The red flag happened later. Laps later. Mercedes and Alfa missed a rare orange X on the outside of a high speed corner, instead mistaking it for a yellow SC. The engineers on the radio didn't react quickly enough to wave Lewis off. It would be interesting to know how much time they had to realize it wasn't just a safety car. Alfa had longer - but McLaren realized it.
They paid a significant cost for the error, though.
In fairness I think Hamilton was committed to the pit before the red was thrown and if he had driven through might not have been penalized. When I used to officiate the rule was with a red flag you came to a safe stop at the nearest flag station and waited for the pace car to collect you and then followed it to the pits. That was long before any electronic communication and flags were not virtual.
It was not a red flag when Lewis pitted.
It was a safety car.
And speaking of Lewis, it is pretty easy to be magnanimous from your golden throne, as you look down over the rabble, but he always seems honestly happy for people who have a good day, as evidenced by his reaction , first, to Gasley winning, then finding that Carlos and Lance were also on the podium.
He also seems to absorb the blame when something goes sideways.
Plus, he is one fast motherberkeleyer.
The red X means the pits are closed and all the flags are displayed in real time on the driver's dash display. It was clear that Lewis was pitting while the red x was there, it was replayed several times. I agree that he is a good man and and a superb driver, but it is a team sport. I think Mercedes took a risk and got caught out.
In reply to lateapexer :
You were calling it a red flag. It wasn't. The pits were clearly closed, but not by a red flag.
What is the physical flag for "safety car, pits are closed"?
lateapexer said:
The red X means the pits are closed and all the flags are displayed in real time on the driver's dash display. It was clear that Lewis was pitting while the red x was there, it was replayed several times. I agree that he is a good man and and a superb driver, but it is a team sport. I think Mercedes took a risk and got caught out.
What risk? What is the benefit? The pit lane was closed at the exact same time as the safety car was called for.
I don't think this was Mercedes taking a risk. What is the benefit? They would have still been in front if they just waited til the pit were open.
Yeah, I think it was just a screwup on the part of two teams. They saw "safety car", but "pit lane closed" did not register. I'm thinking that everyone saw what they expected to see and didn't react to it being a little different until it was too late. It would be really interesting to see how that information is shared - we know what the signs on the track look like from the endless replays, and at speed they're not terribly distinct so it would be easy to make the mistake. What do the teams see? What's on the dashboard of the car?
Keith Tanner said:
What is the physical flag for "safety car, pits are closed"?
Generally its a red light or a dude holding a pair of flags at pit entrance, but we don't really know, since F1 seems to close the pit entrance very seldom. Button commented that it wasn't something he had seen.
When they replayed it, I could have sworn the first light Lewis went by said SC, but I don't have a very large tv, either.
Merc screwed the pooch, surely. I'm just being pedantic...
lateapexer said:
The red X means the pits are closed and all the flags are displayed in real time on the driver's dash display. It was clear that Lewis was pitting while the red x was there, it was replayed several times. I agree that he is a good man and and a superb driver, but it is a team sport. I think Mercedes took a risk and got caught out.
Listen to Toto and Lewis- they didn't take a risk, they didn't know. Pitting under a Safety Car happens all of the time, so it was VERY unusual for the pits to be closed- either for the SC or a VSC.
And I know that we could all see the orange standing X- but every race here knows that's not where you are looking going around that corner. The yellow and the SC notification was shown in the car, no question about that. I don't know if the "pit lane closed" is in the car. It's not on the engineering stand- just those two on the outside of a very fast corner.
There was no risk- that was a mistake, and a mistake that was poorly shown to the drivers- lest we forget, Giovonazzi did the exact same thing.
And that whole situation was caused by the Haas trying to stop in a place he could be brought back behind the fence- just on pit entrance. Ironically, a Ferrari messed with Mercedes.
The Red Flag was LeClerc's hard crash.
Streetwiseguy said:
Keith Tanner said:
What is the physical flag for "safety car, pits are closed"?
Generally its a red light or a dude holding a pair of flags at pit entrance, but we don't really know, since F1 seems to close the pit entrance very seldom. Button commented that it wasn't something he had seen.
Merc screwed the pooch, surely. I'm just being pedantic...
The only thing I saw was the orange non-flashing X on the outside of one of the faster corners in F1. Not a place where I would be looking, for sure. Nothing in the pit entrance- and I'm betting that's going to be changed by the next event. Not just because two drivers got screwed, but if that was a real emergency and two driver had no idea that the pits were closed, that could have been a lot more dangerous. For safety's sake, there should be a flashing light on pit entrance.
The yellow does not mean pits are closed, and a red flag would mean the pits were very open, as that's where the drivers would go if the red was shown.
Merc and Alfa did screw up. But that situation could be a whole lot clearer.
It comes down to graphic design :) The orange X looks too much like the yellow SC, they both have voids in roughly the same places. Add in the fact that it's a signal probably never seen by the drivers and it's no wonder Lewis didn't pick up on it. Maybe something like a flashing red block instead.
I'm still interested in what the guys at the wall saw. Maybe the other teams didn't bring their cars in because they weren't as quick to respond as Mercedes and Alfa. Maybe they figured it out in time. I might ask my friends at McLaren.
Keith Tanner said:
I'm still interested in what the guys at the wall saw. Maybe the other teams didn't bring their cars in because they weren't as quick to respond as Mercedes and Alfa. Maybe they figured it out in time. I might ask my friends at McLaren.
The other teams all had another 20 seconds or so to react. Just went back and watched the safety car again, and there's less than 20 seconds between when they declare "safety car" and when Hamilton commits to the pit lane, and another 20 seconds after that before the McLarens pass pit-in. The McLaren pit guys are actually scrambling for tires at the same time as the Mercedes crew, which suggests to me that if they hadn't had that gap they'd probably have missed it as well. Hamilton saw something odd, he radios in to ask about it, but clearly he didn't know what it meant.
So yeah, clearly Mercedes screwed up, but it was an honest mistake and an easy one to make. The FIA needs to improve their communication.
Gasly actually pitted right before the safety car (after the Haas had stopped, but before they'd decided to push it forwards), and that's what set him up to win. There were one or two years in which F1 experimented with closing the pit lanes during safety cars and that's what it does. Anyone who got lucky and pitted right before the safety car ends up with a big advantage, this is what enabled "crashgate" where they pitted Alonso at a strange time and then Piquet Jr deliberately crashed a couple laps later setting Alonso up to win.
I remember seeing that Gasley stop and figured "tough luck, right before the safety car!" It certainly would have been a difficult strategy to explain if it was intentional!
What a great race, just seeing the "crazy" order at the beginning of it was enough to make me giggle. A pair of mclaren's at the top? They made the comment that the reason they don't have the lights at the true pit entrance is at monza once you've committed to pit in, it's too late to react. Great race and it's always heart warming to see everyone congratulating Pierre and crew at the end. Reverse grid?
Pits are closed when the safety car is deployed and only opened when the safety car signals the Clerk of the Course that the field is gathered behind it. There is an advantage to being in the pits after the incident but before the safety car is deployed, not as much as there was before the rule change last year that controlled speeds by sector times. The lead few cars can get back on track and regain their positions when everyone else pits. I don't know exactly when the red flag came out, but it means a new race with the grid determined by your position on the track when the red was displayed.
Mclaren called their drivers in then waved them off when they noticed pits were closed. Mercedes and Alfa just missed the notice or realized too late. I would never expect the drivers to catch those lights and that's what Lewis went to confirm. At every other track there is a light at the physical end of pit lane that I assume he was looking for but the signal was elsewhere.
lateapexer said:
Pits are closed when the safety car is deployed and only opened when the safety car signals the Clerk of the Course that the field is gathered behind it. There is an advantage to being in the pits after the incident but before the safety car is deployed, not as much as there was before the rule change last year that controlled speeds by sector times.
This was the rule for a year or two around 2008, it is not the rule now. The F1 pit lane is generally not closed.
