FORMULA ONE - 2020

Honda is probably just sick of spending a bunch of money and having F1 stars E36 M3ting all over their engines whether it was deserved or not, looking at you Alonso and Max.

What happens if in 2025, a large portion of cars are electric?  Wouldn't it just be a non spec version of formula e?

Hmmm.

I say we bring back the dfv,  lightly turbo it, and have partial electric only power as well.  Everybody has the same engine.  The fans get the dfv back, this time with spooley boi noises.

BrewCity20 said:

I think Honda's departure leaves F1 in a cross-roads for 2025, either 1) switch to electric/fuel cell and continue to be at the pinnacle of racing/car technology, or 2) Stick with hybrids and become more and more "spec-like" and basically turn into a more expensive European version of IndyCar (which, ironically, may be better for the competitiveness of the racing).

A third option that lands somewhere in-between could be to lock down the power units, make them more "spec-like" - and continue to allow unfettered development on the chassis side. 

I'm relatively new to the F1 fandom scene, but I hate to think of the sport without the visceral feeling that ICE engines provide. Should be interesting to see what happens.

 

Fornula E IS a spec series- one car, a handful of motors, and batteries.  I don't see how the hybrid package is less spec than that- at least the ICE part is unique to each maker.  It's hard to see how an electric motor can differentiate makers.   Even harder for batteries.

And seeing some thing that few here want to accept- hybrids will become far more common than EV's will for at least 20 years.  With current technology- adding the second engine is still a whole lot cheaper than the massive battery pack required for EVs.  I do hope there are some serious discoveries that change that, but lithium-cobalt has too many limitations for a global fleet.

And if F1 was to go all EV- Honda's research would suggest to me that they'd be more in than everyone else.

For OEMs- the key to investment is if whatever they are doing can be applied to their road cars.  That way, the loss seen is still worth it.  Unless the rules are massively simplified to make cheap motors so that GENII, Cosworth, Illmore, etc- can supply the field w/o massive support.  And that I don't see happening- too much pressure on the FIA to clean up their footprint.  

Of all the tech in F1- the one part that I seriously doubt is that useful is the exhaust energy recovery.  The rest of the hybrid system is- especially stepping up voltages to make it more efficient.  And that's the part, IIRC, Cosworth and VAG wanted to remove for them to enter the game.

adam525i (Forum Supporter) said:

Honda is probably just sick of spending a bunch of money and having F1 stars E36 M3ting all over their engines whether it was deserved or not, looking at you Alonso and Max.

They could have made engines that didn't deserve the disses. Just saying...

Honda was snooping around NASCAR and now they are leaving F1.  Honda’s F1 facility is located under five miles from Red Bull’s HQ in Milton Keynes, that would be cool if they manufactured their own engine, and rebadged something cool like a Lambo, Porsche, or cosworth. 

I legitimately took a bee to the face today and it did make me blow my braking zone. I'm on valtteri's side now.

No noise No Watchee .......late y'all

alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to loosecannon :

That would result in another 5 years of them being a midfield team.

This wasn't my original idea, I heard a former F1 engineer suggest it on a podcast. He made a good case for it because Cosworth is currently a profitable business with the technical expertise and manufacturing ability to produce a top notch F1 engine. And since Honda is going down the electric route, they could licence their Formula 1 engine technology to Cosworth, giving them a big leg up on the 2022 engine. And Red Bull could finally integrate their engine/chassis/aero together into a winning package, as Mercedes has done.

In reply to loosecannon :

Cosworth has their own proposed design.  But they didn't want to use the exhaust energy recovery system.  

And I'm sure Honda would be willing to outright sell the F1 power unit as a whole- they have little use for it.  If they were smart, just selling it would make a bunch of good money to put towards the fuel cell research.

It's not a bad idea, but it would take a few years for Cosworth to come up to speed with the Honda unit.  They have technical expertise, no doubt, but to learn this particular path...

Last time Honda left F1, they sold everything off. Worked out well for Brawn :)

Will Max start putting out feelers for a new seat if he doesn't get a Honda? He could break his contract due to the major change in the team. But where could he go that was better than a top level team with a massive #1 status? The only seat better than what he has is Bottas', and there's absolutely no reason for Mercedes to want anything other than exactly what they have until Lewis starts to look at retirement. They're basically guaranteed the WCC and WDC with their existing driver setup. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Brawn didn't use the Honda engine, and for the most part, the team running Brawn designed the Honda chassis, so they were very familiar with it.  Unless the Honda engineers transferred to Cosworth, I'm not sure I would call that the same.

Max's options sure look limited, don't they?  Unless McLaren pulls a rabbit out of their had, or Williams manages to resurrect the past- there are no other teams that have had any championship history other than Mercedes and Ferrari.  (and, realistically, it's been so long for McLaren or Williams, they don't really count, either).

In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :

Didn't McLaren win a title with Hamilton? That's pretty recent.

And Mercedes has publicly started that they would absolutely be interested in Max. I think that they and Hamilton are getting tired of each other.

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

2008 is a LONG time ago.  And it's been since 2012 since they won a race.

I don't seem Lewis leaving until he has 8 championships.  They are the most likely team to let him do that.

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :

Didn't McLaren win a title with Hamilton? That's pretty recent.

And Mercedes has publicly started that they would absolutely be interested in Max. I think that they and Hamilton are getting tired of each other.

2008 for the WDC, 1999 for the WCC. Is 12 years recent? More recent than Ferrari, actually.

I cannot believe that Mercedes and Hamilton are "getting tired of each other". They are both benefiting mightily from their partnership and other than the rumor mill trying to manufacture clicks, I can't see what that would be based on. It's probably the same rumor mill that says that Hamilton whines because he reports on the condition of his tires. The only reason those two would want to part ways would be if Lewis wanted to take on the challenge of rebuilding a team or if Mercedes decided to stop writing checks for the most successful driver the sport has ever seen. 

Keith Tanner said:

2008 for the WDC, 1999 for the WCC. Is 12 years recent? More recent than Ferrari, actually.

The only reason those two would want to part ways would be if Lewis wanted to take on the challenge of rebuilding a team or if Mercedes decided to stop writing checks for the most successful driver the sport has ever seen. 

Ferrari actually won the constructor's championship in 1999.  Schumacher probably would have won the driver's championship that year too, if he hadn't broken his leg.

The only two possibilities I see for Hamilton leaving are A) Mercedes decide they're done spending money on F1 and sell the team B) Hamilton decides he wants to win championships in red due to the mystique of Ferrari.  I don't see B happening any time soon given Ferrari's current performance though.

Y'all realize Hammy doesn't have to leave Merc for them to hire Max right? The new cost cap rules leave the budget limitless for driver pay. If Merc can't spend the money on engineering, might as well have the two fastest drivers...

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

Y'all realize Hammy doesn't have to leave Merc for them to hire Max right? The new cost cap rules leave the budget limitless for driver pay. If Merc can't spend the money on engineering, might as well have the two fastest drivers...

That particular tactic usually backfires.  From the team's perspective, you're better off with a star driver and a competent backup "wingman".

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

That's a bunch of old wives tales thanks to Prost/Senna.

Or Lewis and Nico, perhaps. Or maybe Vettel and Webber.
 

 What would the team gain by swapping out Bottas for Max? More potential problems but the same overall results. Unless it's a long term play for when Lewis decides to retire. 

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

That's a bunch of old wives tales thanks to Prost/Senna.

Not really. When was the last time a team had a multi-champion, clear #1 driver and brought in the "2nd fastest guy" from another team to compete with him? 

BrewCity20 said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

Didn't realize Indy was going hybrid in 2022. Ouch.

 

Now delayed until 2023. Article also mentions Honda committing to IndyCar at least thru 2028.

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

BrewCity20 said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

Didn't realize Indy was going hybrid in 2022. Ouch.

 

Now delayed until 2023. Article also mentions Honda committing to IndyCar at least thru 2028.

If Penske's smart, he'll give the manufacturers an alternative to Green technology and go Old School.  Not everyone wants to promote their brand through racing and spend an arm and a leg on it.  

Keith Tanner said:

Or Lewis and Nico, perhaps. Or maybe Vettel and Webber.
 

 What would the team gain by swapping out Bottas for Max? More potential problems but the same overall results. Unless it's a long term play for when Lewis decides to retire. 

Don't forget about Alonso and Hamilton, if McLaren had one star and one support driver in 2007, they would have been Champion instead of Kimi. A team doesn't want two drivers fighting over the same podium position, they want one getting the top spot and one getting the second spot. It's a subtle difference, I know but when two drivers from the same team try to occupy the same spot, it often results in tears. Some people may not like that Bottas doesn't challenge Lewis enough but he's about the perfect teammate-quick enough to get second more often than not but not quick enough to be challenging Lewis.

Alonso and anyone, really.

Bottas has enough pace to push Hamilton to his best in qualifying. The margins are so small that Lewis has to put in a spectacular performance every single time to stay ahead, and the result is a front row lockout more often than not which is perfect for the team. Bottas doesn't push him as hard during the race but he also doesn't get red mist and take both cars out like Nico did a few times - he'll give up a corner to bring the car home. Mercedes would be foolish to give that teamwork up. The only thing Max would bring would be a bunch of fans who follow him around and a whole bunch of press. Which is not to be sneezed at, but is it worth putting the title results at risk?

loosecannon said:

Keith Tanner said:

Or Lewis and Nico, perhaps. Or maybe Vettel and Webber.
 

 What would the team gain by swapping out Bottas for Max? More potential problems but the same overall results. Unless it's a long term play for when Lewis decides to retire. 

Don't forget about Alonso and Hamilton, if McLaren had one star and one support driver in 2007, they would have been Champion instead of Kimi. A team doesn't want two drivers fighting over the same podium position, they want one getting the top spot and one getting the second spot. It's a subtle difference, I know but when two drivers from the same team try to occupy the same spot, it often results in tears. Some people may not like that Bottas doesn't challenge Lewis enough but he's about the perfect teammate-quick enough to get second more often than not but not quick enough to be challenging Lewis.

If Alonso had mucked up quali at the Hungaroring and Hamilton hadn't beached it in China, he likely would have won the WDC his rookie season.