FoRS Depriciation. “Buy it Now” or wait another year.

goingnowherefast said:

Stefan said:

All of the “documented” issues are usually around people driving like complete numpties and cooking the brakes because they are over-driving the car or putting the rear diff into overheat protection because they are trying to drift it around a full lapping session.

This is genuinely false...

 

Vorshlag has a blog documenting the issues that they have had with their RS in detail. They are almost guaranteed better drivers than 90% of the people here. In addition, I have been in students cars (and driven them myself) and have been able to overheat the RDU in a light 20 minute HPDE no problem. 

 

 

While unrelated to this thread, and perhaps worthy of its own, it’s interesting to hear the various ANECDOTES. It’s clear in that big Vorschlag rant that they’re haters of the FoRS. And for every hater, there’s a fanboi who says “clearly anyone getting the RDU code can’t drive.” Somewhere in between lies the truth. 

My ANECDOTAL contribution to the discussion would be that I have a “track buddy” who drives one regularly at AMP. E85 tune, suspension, and brakes. Watching his car TEAR_berkeleyING_ASS around the track was what got me interested in buying one in the first place. He claims to have never experienced the RDU issue. Granted, that may be a function of the upgraded brakes and suspension, good driving, unicorn tears in the washer fluid reservoir.

Also, of note, in my opinion: Just because your “track rat” doesn’t have 80 godzillion senors to tell you, for instance “Trans temps are high...we’re gonna go into limp mode till you figure out you shouldn’t be driving this at 9/10 on track on factory tires/brakes/fluids/etc, ” you’d be foolish to translate that to “systems nominal.”

I have “a friend” who has beaten on factory, rental “supercars?” or at least “semi-super-out-of-the-box-track-cars” at AMP, and he or she would tell you they VERY RARELY go more than 10 laps before all the bells and whistles started flashing and bonging about E36 M3 gettin’ hot.

*The C7 and GT500, are particularly, consistently disappointing. AMAZING for 5 laps. After that, forget it.

goingnowherefast said:

Stefan said:

All of the “documented” issues are usually around people driving like complete numpties and cooking the brakes because they are over-driving the car or putting the rear diff into overheat protection because they are trying to drift it around a full lapping session.

This is genuinely false...

 

Vorshlag has a blog documenting the issues that they have had with their RS in detail. They are almost guaranteed better drivers than 90% of the people here. In addition, I have been in students cars (and driven them myself) and have been able to overheat the RDU in a light 20 minute HPDE no problem. 

jstein77 said:

There's no such thing as a bone stock Evo IX.

 

You guys who are disparaging the FoRS have never driven one.  It's a truly special piece.

Driven one, tested one, tracked one. 

It's a good daily driver, certainly nothing special, and certainly not a great track car. 

 

 

Sorry, Vorschlag doesn't impress me, they are selling products afterall.  BTW, being a fast driver doesn't mean you are a good driver.  There is a difference. 

Can you detail the situation with your student?  What Track?  What mode was the car in?  What were the prevailing conditions?  What mods on the car?

As to finding stock Evos and RS, yeah they exist.  Unofrtunately, the same folks that destroyed a bunch of Subarus and other hot hatches are now migrating to the RS and destroying them with "tunes" and other questionable "improvements" from various shops.  Lots of adding boost without much thought to the overall package, the fuel quality available and how they treat the car.  Many just want the cache of having "the best/fastest X" than the other folks and then disparage the cars when they blow up in their faces.

In reply to Stefan :

This is a great point. The one I’m looking at now looks nice, but has hints of “non-factory” bits, which makes me wonder if I’d be buying a car with 20k miles that has zero warrantee.

Stefan said:

Sorry, Vorschlag doesn't impress me, they are selling products afterall.  BTW, being a fast driver doesn't mean you are a good driver.  There is a difference. 

Can you detail the situation with your student?  What Track?  What mode was the car in?  What were the prevailing conditions?  What mods on the car?

As to finding stock Evos and RS, yeah they exist.  Unofrtunately, the same folks that destroyed a bunch of Subarus and other hot hatches are now migrating to the RS and destroying them with "tunes" and other questionable "improvements" from various shops.  Lots of adding boost without much thought to the overall package, the fuel quality available and how they treat the car.  Many just want the cache of having "the best/fastest X" than the other folks and then disparage the cars when they blow up in their faces.

It was last year, but here's what I remember: 

-Gingerman raceway

-HPDE1 Student (few autocrosses but no experience) 

-Stock except for fluid and some Hawk pads

-~70 degrees

poopshovel again said:

*The C7 and GT500, are particularly, consistently disappointing. AMAZING for 5 laps. After that, forget it.

And yet you can get a Mustang GT base w/ PP1 and lap all day without any issue much quicker than an RS and while being cheaper. The crux of Vorschlag review is that they went through a list of cars which are not only cheaper, but are quicker and don't have issues on track. Again, it's a great DD. But for me, a car hyped up this much as a performance car, should also be able to perform when it's asked. 

Also guys, the true chance of getting RDU's issues is based on the track, mods, and drivers. But the proof is in the pudding: companies are making products to fix the issue (which to me seems like acknowledging the issue). We are literally on a thread talking about how much FoRS's have depreciated, it's kind of hard to argue that it's some special amazing car... a good car, sure. But a great, car? Prices say otherwies. 

Just wait. There's enough of them around that a year won't matter, it'll just get cheaper. And you're not exactly driving a penalty box now.

They'll keep getting cheaper.  I'd wait, get the new home finance stuff set first.  

If you have no track plans, then so be it.

Back to your question, which I said before, keep waiting. Find one with known history and no mods to the powertrain. I don't see the need to rush in on these. The prices will keep falling. 

In reply to dculberson :

Solid advice. Good point on the current DD being no slouch. 

Reference point: I was REALLY convinced I needed an SRT-4 when they were new, too.

I'm in the market for a hot hatch.  Granted I'm a Euro whore, so I shade towards those.  This car will be my DD and for that *alone* I'm going with the Golf R.  It's simply a much nicer place to spend time compared to the RS, for the way I intend to use it.  A simple tune on the R gives it more power/torque too, so if I care to, I can make the performance equivalent or better.

Plus a 6 year/72k mile bumper to bumper warranty is mighty attractive.

BTW, in case you didn't know, Poopy is/was a resident Honda guy. Always seemed to have fast ones around, or at least at the Challenge.  He is /was not a Honda hater.

Appleseed said:

BTW, in case you didn't know, Poopy is/was a resident Honda guy. Always seemed to have fast ones around, or at least at the Challenge.  He is /was not a Honda hater.

That is...until “The incident.”  Jokes. CTR would be a no-brainer if it wasn’t so hideous to look at inside and out. If anyone knows of a petty blue, 350hp, GE Fit for sale, I’m all over it.

And as a total car-slut, with zero “brand loyalty,” I have zero interest in owning/maintaining a Volkswagen.

Yeah, I can't handle the way the CTR looks either.  It totally redefines fugly.

poopshovel again said:

2. I’d probably pay cash for the difference of sale of the V, purchase of the FoRS. Credit score is 820.

Credit score doesn't matter that much in this case - mortgage underwriters care more about exposure to other financial obligations than how good you are at paying them back.

Paying cash for the car might make a difference as long as you don't need the cash for the house.

In reply to Stefan :

Which is why I think it is important to buy before they depreciate much more.  Cars are stock only once.

I seem to remember listening to ‘The Smoking Tire’ after vorshlag’s lambasting of the FoRS. Matt Farah has his tuned by Mountune (for free I believe, so there is opportunity for bias). They stated that there is no temp sensor in the RDU and they have close ties with Ford. Also, while he builds some really really cool cars and no doubt makes top quality products, Terry Fair comes over as an obnoxious opinionated A hole who holds himself in very very high esteem. He’s been proven wrong on more than one occasion but barely acknowledges it. 

I’ve never  met him, Farah or anyone at Mountune so this is worth as much as you’re paying for it!

Adrian_Thompson said:

I seem to remember listening to ‘The Smoking Tire’ after vorshlag’s lambasting of the FoRS. Matt Farah has his tuned by Mountune (for free I believe, so there is opportunity for bias). They stated that there is no temp sensor in the RDU and they have close ties with Ford. Also, while he builds some really really cool cars and no doubt makes top quality products, Terry Fair comes over as an obnoxious opinionated A hole who holds himself in very very high esteem. He’s been proven wrong on more than one occasion but barely acknowledges it. 

I’ve never  met him, Farah or anyone at Mountune so this is worth as much as you’re paying for it!

Farah has a diarrhea of the mouth problem. Take a look at his twitter if you need empirical evidence of that. 

I'm having a hard time believing a Hong guy isn't opting for the Honda option; however, they seem to love their MX-3 Crapcan racer so that erases some of the skepticism. 

Seems like he's going to be using this just for DD purposes so who cares about the fanboi and hater opinions. Every car has it's imperfections and it's wonders. I still opt for waiting until they house is completed. 

Also a hard to find vehicle that hasn't been torn to shreds by "tUneR bois" is the S2000. Also people trying to buy S2000s are royal PITAs as well. 

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

Again, I’m a car-slut. I currently own a Mazda, Cadillac, Ford, Nissan, Land Rover, and “oldnasty,” (The Integra that’s kinda languishing away.) 

I don’t really have any contact with the MX-3 guys. Not a slam on them; I just can’t take any credit for their success aside from providing the first motor and “helping” them get that first Lemons win (“helping” in quotations because I was the alowest driver of the bunch!)

I half-considered a CTR in white till I realized they all had the same Vato-zone clearance bin interior.

More personal opinion.  This may be skewed by my 50 year old ass and Michigan roads that make a stage of the Safari Rally look like a billiard table, but personally, I find the ride way way too stiff.  For a weekend toy, I'm in, but not for me to DD.  YMMV, actually I'm pretty sure most peoples mileage WILL vary!!

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

I deliberately drove it on a mix of roads on the test drive in Sport mode & didn’t find it as brutal as people made it out to be, though I’d likely go smaller on the wheels & maybe swap springs as lots of other folks have. The Caddy feels “numb” to me till you put it in sport mode, which I typically do the second I get off the hwy.

Also, with any luck, my commute will go from 80 miles a day to zero in the next year or two :)

While I do like the RS and while I've not driven it, a friend has owned one since they were new. He's actually on his second after a friend totaled the first one in an autocross incident.  He also still drives his modified Volvo C30 about as often.  Regardless, as neat as they are, when a used GT350 can be had for a few $K more, the RS looks less appealing. At least to me.

Adrian_Thompson said:

Also, while he builds some really really cool cars and no doubt makes top quality products, Terry Fair comes over as an obnoxious opinionated A hole who holds himself in very very high esteem. He’s been proven wrong on more than one occasion but barely acknowledges it. 

Terry Fair's had his clashes here, on this very forum, and didn't come across well to me. (Called someone an idiot and banned them from buying from them ever again, all for canceling an order before it even shipped. Yep, real winner there.)

DirtyBird222 said:
Farah has a diarrhea of the mouth problem. Take a look at his twitter if you need empirical evidence of that. 

I see nothing to hint that anything he has to say about a car would be tainted due to his twitter. Is it because you disagree with his politics or how he says it?

Ian F said:

While I do like the RS and while I've not driven it, a friend has owned one since they were new. He's actually on his second after a friend totaled the first one in an autocross incident.  He also still drives his modified Volvo C30 about as often.  Regardless, as neat as they are, when a used GT350 can be had for a few $K more, the RS looks less appealing. At least to me.

I’d keep the V over a Mustang, but different strokes & all....

In reply to poopshovel again :

That GT350 is also a buyback car that it looks like they never found the problem on.... hence the low price. 

dculberson said:

I see nothing to hint that anything he has to say about a car would be tainted due to his twitter. Is it because you disagree with his politics or how he says it?

It's hard to take him seriously when he's such a below average driver outside of 5/10ths driving on a mountain road. 

Go watch his video review of the new Supra, I've never seen so many missed braking points, apexs, or just flatly unaware driving outside of a novice group at an HPDE. 

I wouldn't know anything about Twitter, I have better things to do then watch people constantly get pissed off about everything.

Saron81 said:

In reply to poopshovel again :

That GT350 is also a buyback car that it looks like they never found the problem on.... hence the low price. 

Just curious, did you run the VIN is or the tipoff the comment about "COMES WITH 12 MONTH, 12,000 MILE SPECIAL FORD MOTOR COMPANY FACTORY LIMITED BUMPER TO BUMPER WARRANTY."

The early cars especially are known for using nearly as much oil as gas, right?