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motomoron
motomoron SuperDork
11/17/11 1:20 p.m.

I bring back a 5 gallon jug of no-ethanol Sunoco 94 from the track every time I go. This goes in premix for a classic 2-stroke motorcycle that's just been completely restored,power equipment, and big gas RC planes. It's funny that I haven't had a carb turn to sh1t since I began the practice, and was rebuilding or replacing the carbs on planes, weed-wackers and leaf blower annually before.

I ran a tank of the no-methanol stuff in my M3 at Summit once when I forgot to fill up in town. I got better than a 10% improvement in mileage, and it ran with the temp gauge just a hair above where it usually sits, likely a result of the better energy density/volume.

RossD
RossD MegaDork
11/17/11 1:30 p.m.

I notice a fuel economy difference when I switch from Kwik Trip's 87 oct E10 to the 91 oct E0 in the miata. (consistant 28 mpg to consistant 30 mpg)

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
11/17/11 5:01 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: If they claim it, it's a lie. All fuel sold in the US is required to be E10. They are not required to report anything below E15, at least for now. Eric

Marinas can stock ethanol-free fuel. So if the gas station owner can claim that he has boat customers, he can probably claim the exemption.

I only know this because my parents own a marina, and recently switched to ethanol-free fuel on all their pumps, since boat engines do NOT like ethanol.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/17/11 7:34 p.m.
irish44j wrote:
alfadriver wrote: If they claim it, it's a lie. All fuel sold in the US is required to be E10. They are not required to report anything below E15, at least for now. Eric
Marinas can stock ethanol-free fuel. So if the gas station owner can claim that he has boat customers, he can probably claim the exemption. I only know this because my parents own a marina, and recently switched to ethanol-free fuel on all their pumps, since boat engines do NOT like ethanol.

Marine fuel is not road legal. No road tax.

Gas stations that service cars can not get around the rule, the boat owners are the ones choosing to use car fuel in thier boats.

None the less, this is a zombie thread. Very old.

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
11/17/11 7:49 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: None the less, this is a zombie thread. Very old.

And every bit as relevant today as it was when it was started. I honestly wish there was a place reasonably close to me that sold Ethanol-free gasoline. I would gladly pay more for it.

stan_d
stan_d SuperDork
11/17/11 8:04 p.m.

My 86 Audi 5000 with cis injection ran like crap on e10. I would even think of buying one now.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/17/11 8:13 p.m.
1988RedT2 wrote:
alfadriver wrote: None the less, this is a zombie thread. Very old.
And every bit as relevant today as it was when it was started. I honestly wish there was a place reasonably close to me that sold Ethanol-free gasoline. I would gladly pay more for it.

Which, as I posted a year ago, isn't legal. E10 is mandated, E15 is allowed without a label, and E20 may also come.

ADM is a powerful lobby.

belteshazzar
belteshazzar PowerDork
11/17/11 8:31 p.m.
alfadriver wrote:
belteshazzar wrote: nearly all the gas stations where i live offer both non-ethanol and e10, and they are labelled as such.
Here's the drink buying post- replying to a zombie thread from arguably a canoe.

i don't know what you just said

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
11/18/11 6:38 a.m.
alfadriver wrote:
1988RedT2 wrote:
alfadriver wrote: None the less, this is a zombie thread. Very old.
And every bit as relevant today as it was when it was started. I honestly wish there was a place reasonably close to me that sold Ethanol-free gasoline. I would gladly pay more for it.
Which, as I posted a year ago, isn't legal. E10 is mandated, E15 is allowed without a label, and E20 may also come. ADM is a powerful lobby.

True enough. But are we to simply roll over and allow corruption and greed to govern us?

I want ethanol-free gasoline and I vote!

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/18/11 7:10 a.m.
belteshazzar wrote:
alfadriver wrote:
belteshazzar wrote: nearly all the gas stations where i live offer both non-ethanol and e10, and they are labelled as such.
Here's the drink buying post- replying to a zombie thread from arguably a canoe.
i don't know what you just said

The unwritten rule to buy a drink if a canoe revives a very old thread, and first person to reply to the original thread is paying.

The thread is well over a year old, and it appears a canoe re-started it.

iceracer
iceracer MegaDork
11/18/11 9:06 a.m.

You here a lot about the ethanol absorbing water. Yet for years people have put Dri-Gas (methanol or isopropyl alchohol) in their tanks in the winter with every fill up Go Figure.

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
11/18/11 9:47 a.m.

In reply to iceracer:

What, a pint of methanol in a 10 to 20 gallon tank vs. 10% ethanol per gallon? The ratios aren't remotely similar.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
11/18/11 10:49 a.m.
alfadriver wrote:
belteshazzar wrote:
alfadriver wrote:
belteshazzar wrote: nearly all the gas stations where i live offer both non-ethanol and e10, and they are labelled as such.
Here's the drink buying post- replying to a zombie thread from arguably a canoe.
i don't know what you just said
The unwritten rule to buy a drink if a canoe revives a very old thread, and first person to reply to the original thread is paying. The thread is well over a year old, and it appears a canoe re-started it.

Why do you hate old threads?

belteshazzar
belteshazzar PowerDork
11/18/11 10:55 a.m.

i don't know that he does, but it's funny when someone doesn't notice. sort of.

Taiden
Taiden UltraDork
11/18/11 11:01 a.m.

My 318i also requests premium, but I give it 87.

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
11/18/11 11:04 a.m.
tuna55 wrote: Why do you hate old threads?

I think he's on the Board of Directors at Archer Daniels Midland.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
11/18/11 11:14 a.m.
1988RedT2 wrote:
tuna55 wrote: Why do you hate old threads?
I think he's on the Board of Directors at Archer Daniels Midland.

HA!

I remember an old exchange on eng-tips.com where someone was basically saying that the big oil guys pay car manufacturers to not design more fuel efficient cars. He was trying to convince someone. The guy he was trying to convince was an powertrain engineer at Ford in Europe or something. He didn't get far.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/18/11 11:25 a.m.
belteshazzar wrote: i don't know that he does, but it's funny when someone doesn't notice. sort of.

I do find it funny when threads come back from the dead, and starts a whole new debate. Especially when it's the same people having same debate a year or two later.

You see these threads that pop up which are multiple pages, and think "wow, must be a heated debate to be so new and have that much," read it, think, and not notice that the original post might be from 2009.

Bad drinking game.

wbjones
wbjones MegaDork
11/18/11 1:27 p.m.

don't know if this guy is full of E36 M3 or knows what he's talking about but for what it's worth.....

http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2011/08/31/the-mythical-e10-mandate/

he mythical E10 mandate Kent Misegades | GAfuels | August 31, 2011 Many people misunderstand what the country in general — and their state in particular — is required to do about ethanol in auto gasoline. First, let’s look at the BIG picture: There is no federal mandatory E10 law. Many people believe that there is, but it is not true. There are only six states with active mandatory ethanol laws and only five of those have mandatory E10 laws. The five states with active mandatory E10 laws are, in order of implementation: Minnesota, Hawaii, Missouri, Oregon, and Florida. The state of Washington has a wimpy mandatory 2% volumetric ethanol law. Two states have mandatory E10 laws on the books that have never triggered, and probably never will, Montana and Pennsylvania, and one other state has one of those useless 2% volumetric laws on its books that has never triggered, Louisiana. The state of Washington is trying to repeal its mandatory volumetric law because it is now ineffectual, and Hawaii’s mandatory E10 law has been a disaster for its marine industry so officials have made changes to the law to protect the state’s marine industry and there has been an effort to completely repeal it. Missouri has also tried to repeal its mandatory E10 law. Let’s talk about “Oxygenate Programs” since this promotes a lot of confusion about ethanol, especially ethanol blending levels. There are a number of areas in the country — they are all large metropolitan areas — that have “oxygenate” requirements in the winter. The oxygenate program is overseen by the EPA. Many of these programs have been rescinded because modern, computer controlled pollution systems in cars have vastly improved tail pipe emissions and the production of Reformulated Gasoline, commonly known as RFG, has produced a much cleaner burning fuel, vastly reducing tail pipe air pollution emissions. The gasoline producers made an oxygenate called MTBE, which increased octane and provided excess oxygen which helps reduce CO emissions, the main pollution in winter that the EPA was trying to reduce to improve air quality. As many of you know, MTBE was an ecological disaster when it started showing up in drinking water. Turns out it was a long lived carcinogen that was absorbed in lakes and streams. So the gasoline producers, with the blessing of the EPA, turned to ethanol to replace MTBE as an oxygenate. However, the blending level for ethanol as an oxygenate to meet EPA air quality requirements is very low, less than 3.6% in all cases. To find out whether an oxygenate program is required in your state and what the blending level is, consult this EPA table. You will notice that Phoenix has the highest allowed ethanol blending from 11/02 to 3/15 of each winter season at 3.5%. You will notice that there is no requirement for E10 in any winter oxygenate program. That table also shows how many urban areas no longer have winter oxygenate programs because they no longer need them. There is no place in the U.S. that has a year round oxygenate program requirement And finally, let’s talk about Reformulated Gasoline, or RFG. What people are confusing with oxygenate program requirements is usually an RFG requirement, also overseen by the EPA. To see if your area is in a mandatory RFG area consult this EPA table. Many people believe that California is a mandatory E10 state. It is not, but there are many areas in California that are mandatory RFG areas, and Los Angeles County also has a winter oxygenate requirement. RFG programs are year round. In reality, 99% of all RFG produced in the nation is E10 and in California all of the gasoline producers are making E10 all the time because it is the most convenient blend to meet RFG requirements, winter oxygenate requirements and their ethanol blending quota. So where is all of the E10 coming from? It is coming from the unintended consequences of the federal RFS mandate in a large, complicated act called the Energy Independence and Security Act (2007), a.k.a. HR-6 (2007). The website, E0PC.com, will explain everything you ever wanted to know about this insidious law, but suffice it to say EISA 2007 is NOT a mandatory E10 law. EISA 2007 was supposed to increase the production and distribution of E85 and sale of flex-fuel vehicles. What is ironic is that E10 is not a “Renewable Fuel” as defined by EISA 2007. Renewable Fuel is defined in several places in the act as E85 and in one place as E11 and above. E10 is gasoline made to ASTM D4814 blended with 10% ethanol, but it is still gasoline as far as the EPA and ASTM are concerned, not a Renewable Fuel. However there is a hard-coded blending quota table in the act that directs gasoline producers to blend ethanol into gasoline in ever-increasing amounts through 2022, but makes no requirement about what kind of fuel must result. You would think it would be E85, since E85 is “Renewable Fuel” but that isn’t required by the act, so we get what gasoline producers can actually sell, E10 everywhere, and by the end of next year all of the gasoline in the U.S. will have to be E10 and after that the producers will have ever-increasing ethanol blending quotas with nowhere to put it. Can you say Train Wreck? In summary, there is no country wide mandatory E10 law, only five states have implemented mandatory E10 laws and all of those states have exceptions for marine, aircraft, old cars and small engines from the blending requirement. Then there are a few winter oxygenate areas in the country, which can be met with E3.5 or less, and finally there are RFG areas, but they require no ethanol. So there is no reason whatsoever that the U.S. is getting E10 in all of the auto gasoline, but it’s happening nevertheless. And please understand, not one of the mandatory E10 states, which provide exceptions for aircraft use, has a statute that requires that ethanol free gasoline be produced and there is no federal statute that requires that ethanol free gasoline be produced for those applications that need it. So, as the gasoline producers are swamped by their mandatory, cast in stone, federal quotas from the table in EISA 2007, the only thing that they will make is E10 unless sanity prevails. Dean Billing The GAfuels Blog is written by two private pilots concerned about the future availability of fuels for piston-engine aircraft: Dean Billing, Sisters, Ore., an expert on autogas and ethanol, and Kent Misegades, Cary, N.C., an aerospace engineer, aviation sales rep for U-Fuel, and president of EAA1114.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/18/11 1:39 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: It's called the Renewable Fuel Standard, and started to phase in permanently in 2008- http://www.epa.gov/otaq/renewablefuels/420f10007.htm - this is in reaction to the SC rule that EPA does have authority to regulate CO2, so this is supposed to put in renewable fuels into the normal fuel blends. More importantly, the older Reformulated Gas law specifies that all fuel needs to be 2% oxygenated, which does result in roughly E10. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg.htm That was a follow up to the local allowances to let areas to use Oxygenates to reduce emissions, and then pushing that basic fuel across the country.

wbjones- I'm not sure if he's really aware of the two laws that I posted a year ago. I am fully sure that the cars that are being developed are mainly being tuned to be optimum with E10, since that's the 'spec' for fuel in the US.

Aviation and marine fuels run under different rules. Very different, since you can get leaded (abit very low lead) for av gas. As far as I know, while av fuels are being looked at, they are taking a very, very conservative approach. And since these guys know more about Av fuel than others, the article has some merit based on that.

As for MTBE, on a pump level, it was replaced by Ethanol, but on an emissions spec level, it was only recently taken off of the list. I've been asking if CARB has gotten around to replacing their spec fuel ever since they stopped allowing MTBE.

Do note, that the renewable fuel rule isn't the same as the energy independance rule. So...

Still, E10 may result in lower fuel economy, but should do very little to the car. stoich moves from 14.6 to 14.1 or so. Running with any feedback sensor will correct that very error very quickly.

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