FWD Technique

I think most FWD racers lift a little bit. My car does and it's very stiffly sprung on all four struts.

DaewooOfDeath wrote: I think most FWD racers lift a little bit. My car does and it's very stiffly sprung on all four struts.

Daewoo, honestly..so do I (lift-to-rotate). I can't left foot brake worth a damn. Shoulda spent more time in a kart, I guess.

I really want to learn left foot braking, but it sure isn't very practical when you're changing gear for every corner. If I'm able to get the resources together, my next project is going to have the clutch on the gear lever for this very reason.

Some people have their brakes on a lever ... Added bonus is that it is just the rear brakes

I don't really understand it, but I know at least a couple of FWD autocross cars that rotate like crazy. Unfortunately I don't know exactly how they do it. But they get the rear of those things to swing around like nobody's business.

There's a Civic (ST? I think) that seems like it's always got an available seat. It's always fun to watch people in their first run in that car- lots of spins. But in good hands, the thing is wicked fast.

FSP Scriocco that's the same way. Nobody worrying about pushing in those beasts. So there is a lot to be done in set up. Sorry, that's all I know about it. Would love to know more.

That's a function of a LOT of rear bar and a LOT of rear spring, and some toe-out in the back.

Learned how to correct fwd oversteer with throttle during a rain qualifying SCCA regional race in my ITS Integra. I was amazed how predictable it was and actually enjoyed it.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: That's a function of a LOT of rear bar and a LOT of rear spring, and some toe-out in the back.

Exactly! This is how my FX16 is set-up. ¾" rear bar; 750# rear springs; 2mm rear toe-out both sides. It rotates like a dream, but you must anticipate and track-out before it comes around. The LSD really helps to pull it through!

Left foot braking helps too, but you MUST know the course so you are not trying to left-foot brake and shift at the same time.

A lot more good explanations! I'm getting the general consensus about using the longitudinal weight transfer to rotate, but there is one thing that confuses me a bit.

When the total weight on the tire is increased the total traction capacity of the tire increases, (i.e. the traction circle is bigger). However, it seems intuitive to me that more weight on the front end would result in less lateral acceleration in g's even though the total force is greater. Does that make sense to anyone? For example, in general the lighter end of a car has better lateral grip assuming the same size tire is used.

Set the rear end for drift mode is how you get it to rotate.

And for those with a FWD thinking they are going into a corner at warp speed, that's just your perception. The guy in the RWD car behind you is grinding his teeth because you are slowing him down at his RWD advantage point. And then because he's slowed down the FWD advantage point (being able to accelerate earlier in the corner) is adding insult to injury.

And then again it could just be that every FWD driver I've been behind has been less skilled than the remarkable driver behind him - NAH!

1manwolfpack wrote: A lot more good explanations! I'm getting the general consensus about using the longitudinal weight transfer to rotate, but there is one thing that confuses me a bit. When the total weight on the tire is increased the total traction capacity of the tire increases, (i.e. the traction circle is bigger). However, it seems intuitive to me that more weight on the front end would result in less lateral acceleration in g's even though the total force is greater. Does that make sense to anyone? For example, in general the lighter end of a car has better lateral grip assuming the same size tire is used.

It's two different kinds of weight. A stiff rear bar (or springs in my case) pushes down on the inside front suspension, increasing the tires' grip. However, it doesn't increase the amount of mass the front tires are trying to move sideways.

The rear inside, on the other hand, goes completely air born but still has the same amount of weight pushing it sideways.

I swear Mini drivers would put castors on the back if they could figure out how.

As for the corner entry speed - I took a very quick Miata-driving friend of mine for a ride on an autocross. I think he had FTD at that point. When we dove into the first corner, he just started laughing, the entry speed was so quick. Of course, that's a Mini that weighs 1450 lbs. But it's not like he got out of a slow car. Having the front wheels pull you out of a corner really does make a difference to what you can do.

When you put more weight on a tire, it does gain traction. But never quite enough to compensate for the extra weight.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: That's a function of a LOT of rear bar and a LOT of rear spring, and some toe-out in the back.

My CRX has a lot of rear bar, but not a lot of rear spring (in relation to the front) and definitely no rear toe out.

steverife wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: That's a function of a LOT of rear bar and a LOT of rear spring, and some toe-out in the back.

My CRX has a lot of rear bar, but not a lot of rear spring (in relation to the front) and definitely no rear toe out.

It's also a very short car.

Keith wrote: My fwd track experience is in my classic Mini. The technique there is to enter the corner too quickly, turn in, nail the throttle and watch the laws of physics shatter as you laugh like an idiot.

I know I am two days late reading this thread, but this particular post would have been sooo much better if you had in-car footage with audio of you laughing like an idiot.

My CRX always caught people off guard with its wayward tail. 400lb springs and a 23mm solid sway bar kept that bad boy rotating.

Anything less than R-comps and it was almost uncontrollable = perfect.

I still like my stock Miata more...

my only experience competing with a FWD was autocrossing.

recommendation number 1: make sure the hand operated parking brake works as well as possible.

recommendation number 2: find a way to practice using it. once i was good and warmed up, i could do a U-turn on a 2 lane road pretty quickly/effortlessly.

EdenPrime wrote: . I use a technique Keiichi Tsuchiya demonstrated; when entering a corner, graze the inside rumble strips with the inside tires-- it disrupts that understeer enough to get you through the corner well.

Fellow I used to crew for was famous for his use of this technique. He never saw a curb he didn't like.

steverife wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: That's a function of a LOT of rear bar and a LOT of rear spring, and some toe-out in the back.

My CRX has a lot of rear bar, but not a lot of rear spring (in relation to the front) and definitely no rear toe out.

I run no bars and the same rate springs at all four corners. There are a lot of factors that go into it.

Hal wrote:

EdenPrime wrote: . I use a technique Keiichi Tsuchiya demonstrated; when entering a corner, graze the inside rumble strips with the inside tires-- it disrupts that understeer enough to get you through the corner well.

Fellow I used to crew for was famous for his use of this technique. He never saw a curb he didn't like.

lots of folk use this technique ... throws a lot of extra weight towards the outside front tire.... which must be what helps it turn ... I am totally sure there are several on this board that can give a much more in depth discussion of this

1manwolfpack wrote: A lot more good explanations! I'm getting the general consensus about using the longitudinal weight transfer to rotate, but there is one thing that confuses me a bit. When the total weight on the tire is increased the total traction capacity of the tire increases, (i.e. the traction circle is bigger). However, it seems intuitive to me that more weight on the front end would result in less lateral acceleration in g's even though the total force is greater. Does that make sense to anyone? For example, in general the lighter end of a car has better lateral grip assuming the same size tire is used.

As with any handling question, it's going to end up as a compromise. Total traction capacity is increased..until the tire is overwhelmed (another variable, of course) and traction is lost. My own FWD car was set up to lose some of that traction in the rear on purpose (one tire off the ground, remember?) to get the thing to rotate. Basically, I knew that the lighter end of the car would (in theory) have more grip..so we purposely set the rear suspension to insure that the inside tire would come off the ground, and reduce the grip on that end of the car. Same weight, half the contact patch back there. Rotation ensues.

Of course..hitting the apex properly is still up to you..
\

Granted the CRX is a good platform and I just autocross, but everything I've done is to make the car more stable and then I drive it as smooth as possible and get on the gas as early as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_RNwXzydSQ&list=UUQo6QdfnaqWwLqzTrieDGvA&index=10&feature=plcp

steverife wrote: Granted the CRX is a good platform and I just autocross, but everything I've done is to make the car more stable and then I drive it as smooth as possible and get on the gas as early as possible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_RNwXzydSQ&list=UUQo6QdfnaqWwLqzTrieDGvA&index=10&feature=plcp

Never say "just autocross". I actually find it more difficult than circuit racing. First, the course is different every weekend (I must be the worst course reader in the world, I can walk one five times and still not quite get it), and you've got to be on the top of your game immediately.

If a road race is a wrestling match, an autocross is a knife fight.

You look pretty smooth in the vid! Nice work with the hands, too. Lots of people forget to shuffle, and just go hand over hand. How was the run?

When in trouble, stab the GAS. It will pull you through.

Very counter-intuitive.

took me a long time to learn that ... now I'm half-a$$ed scared to try a RWD car on track ... since that's not the one fix takes care of all problems like it is with FWD