Getting in on the Mike Rowe love fest

Very much agree.

Sometimes all it takes is one teacher. I went to regular HS during the morning, then vocational school for photography during my last two years of school.

In my senior year I had an excellent english teacher .English wasn't boring anymore. 4 years later, I received a degree in journalsim, with an emphasis in magazine production, and wound up in the automotive journalism field.

I self-taught most of my automotive knowledge by doing with the shop manual close by.

My point: I've seen both sides, and you're right, there should be a mandate that he has the option available to him that he's not stuck in the drive thru window the rest of his life. With people seeing how much a plumber, electrician or having a new roof put on--let alone change a battery in a BMW, maybe that'll change. Here's hoping.

The trend has shifted from HS vo-tech training to 2-yr associate degree specialized trade schools... tuition about $30K +/- now for 2 yr FT schools. Without that degree employment chances slim greatly. Not to say it can't be done through PT community college or adult vo-tech classes for someone w/ a foot already in the door but that 2 yr. degree carries a lotta weight. Also check out trade apprenticeship programs in your area: paid to learn OTJ and classroom.

Guess I just lucky. My father was an engineer and my mother was a school teacher. My father was one of those kind of people who was never afraid to try anything. He did all the plumbing, electrical work, etc. around the house. In fact he built most of the house with my and my brother's help.

There was never any option except that I would go to college. So I went to college and became a shop teacher.

I have had part-time summer jobs as an electrician, plumber, roofer, mason, and car and motorcycle mechanic to name a few.

I gotta say, I'm not a big fan of the posts that imply that college graduates don't "do anything". That's a bunch of bullE36 M3. That computer you typed on? It wasn't designed and delivered solely by a blue collar worker. Engineers. Programmers. Businesspeople. Bankers. Graphic Designers. And yes, Assemblyworkers, Truck drivers, Ship drivers etc. It takes the whole spectrum to make this world go around.
I'm a college graduate who has always had the "chip" because I don't "do" anything. I don't have a brick wall to show at the end of the day, but I'm rounding that corner to the knowledge that everyone is a cog in the machine. Where there is a demand, it will be filled.

I still regret not becoming an electrician. I spent one semester in votech for electronic technology. I liked until we got to AC circuits and O scopes and things like that. It became way too tedious for me. Miliamps and microfarads. It was more like electrical engineering than anything. Wiring a house would have been more up my ally.

I ended up switching to business and got an associates degree. That was pretty much a waste of money and time. I guess I haven't learned much from that because I'm back in school to turn that into a bachelor's degree at the age of 28.

In any case I found a job that is a mix between blue and white collar. I sell industrial supplies to businesses. I get to get my hands a little dirty and I get to be in cool shops and factories where neat things are made. I don't however have to wreck my body in the process.

As others have said earlier the most important thing is work ethic. So long as you are willing and able to work hard you will be successful whether you sit in an office or dig ditches.

frenchy wrote: I still regret not becoming an electrician. I spent one semester in votech for electronic technology. I liked until we got to AC circuits and O scopes and things like that. It became way too tedious for me. Miliamps and microfarads. It was more like electrical engineering than anything. Wiring a house would have been more up my ally.

Sounds a lot like how my HVAC classes went down, lots of time focusing on troubleshooting and the technical aspects, and not so much on what you spend the majority of your time doing. What's the first thing you always get stuck doing at a job? Hanging duct work, which I was not taught, because we might have cut ourselves.

I think you should pursue your interests, but go into it with your eyes open. Know that as a mechanic you are never going to live in the big house or have the really nice car, take expensive vacations, etc. You have to calibrate your expectations early. I'm certainly not going to push my son toward the trades because of these facts.

I've been a mechanic all my life, and I have, and do all those things and more.

Maybe the wages in your area are low, but the guys that I work with, and that have worked for me make close to, if not 6 figures. These are Millwrights, and electricians. Both my kids are in industrial maintenance, one as a millwright apprentice (contractor, so less money), the other a helper/lube tech in a factory. Both will crack $50k this year.

Grizz wrote:

triumph5 wrote: True,but not entirely. Iin the approx 5 years you graduated HS, the humber of counties that have had to drop these programs has been dramatic .

It's been 6 years since I dropped out, so you're probably right. I'm honestly fine with art and music getting cut, I would like to see more schooling funds go towards actually teaching people how to do things. That D student isn't going to be an engineer, maybe we should do something to make sure he isn't stuck at McDonalds for the rest of his life.

I'm not fine with art and music getting cut. But i would be fine with sports being cut from SCHOOL budget. Let that E36 M3 be the community's burden directly, instead of taking away from school funding.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Grizz wrote:

triumph5 wrote: True,but not entirely. Iin the approx 5 years you graduated HS, the humber of counties that have had to drop these programs has been dramatic .

It's been 6 years since I dropped out, so you're probably right. I'm honestly fine with art and music getting cut, I would like to see more schooling funds go towards actually teaching people how to do things. That D student isn't going to be an engineer, maybe we should do something to make sure he isn't stuck at McDonalds for the rest of his life.

I'm not fine with art and music getting cut. But i would be fine with sports being cut from SCHOOL budget. Let that E36 M3 be the community's burden directly, instead of taking away from school funding.

Sports teach no less than art and music. Maybe the community should support both of them and let the schools concentrate on more academic things.

Edited to add:

In most instances sports and art/music aren't going to add to anyone's ability to put food on the table. There are a lot of other thing that will. I would much rather see them teach those. Carpentry, electricity, welding, mechanics, computers, automotive repairs, plumbing, the list is endless. For every sports player or musician there are thousands of trades people. Why teach what almost no one does for a living.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: But i would be fine with sports being cut from SCHOOL budget. Let that E36 M3 be the community's burden directly, instead of taking away from school funding.

+1 If the local community cares so much about sports, they should pay for them. Put the meager school budget towards things that will help kids have jobs after high school. (And yes, that includes the misnamed "three R's" that will be necessary regardless of whether that student wants to pursue a trade or further education.)

I'll just leave this here:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-question-youre-not-asking-should-you-go-to-college/
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-6-best-college-majors-for-filling-you-with-regret/

Mike Rowe is one of the most astute people out there.

The problem (as I see it) is that the last 2 generations have grown up believing that in order to command respect in this society you have to have a desk with your name on it and a sheepskin on the wall proclaiming you spent a lot of time in school. Honestly, there is really nothing wrong with that. If it's what you love, by all means charge ahead. (For the record, my kid wants to go to college to be a vet. I fully support her in that.) But the problem is how many people were basically forced into that by their parents. We wound up with way too many chiefs and not enough braves.

The brilliant Ivy League types got us into this whole economic mess in the first place, too. They've had it hammered into their heads since they were little kids that (as Gordon Gecko said) 'Greed is good' and they damn near brought the country down with that attitude.

A while back on this same board, there was a fairly similar discussion and the subject of the value of the garbage man vs the doctor came up. The consensus was the garbage man got paid less than the doctor because his contribution to society wasn't as great. Uh, no. You see the doc maybe once, twice a year. The garbage man gets your trash every week. If both were to suddenly disappear, which one's absence would you notice first? Right. Make no mistake: both make a definite contribution to society, but the garbage man is looked down on for performing his essential service. He of course doesn't want his kid to be looked down on, so the cycle begins again.

Mike was right on the money. That attitude is what's wrong with the country.

Teh E36 M3 wrote: Kreb- one of the problems I have is finding someone who is a real craftsman. I don't think this is uncommon. Too many amateurs out there claiming they know what they're doing- so many that I don't trust anyone, and end up doing most of the jobs myself. My dad was a bricklayer, and pushed me to college. I don't regret it. I humped enough bricks around jobs from the age of 6-18 that I didn't want any part of it. The military has been a good life for me, and no where else would I have been able to become a pilot. I don't even care how much money I earn as long as it is enough that I don't have to worry too much about it (read: it doesn't cause arguments with the wife, and I'm not scraping for change to buy food). I think you should pursue your interests, but go into it with your eyes open. Know that as a mechanic you are never going to live in the big house or have the really nice car, take expensive vacations, etc. You have to calibrate your expectations early. Know that as a manual laborer, your body will hate you when you are 50. I'm certainly not going to push my son toward the trades because of these facts. Anyway, he said I could do anything I wanted, but I was by god going to have a college degree to "fall back on".

I have been lurking a while but this was the post that prompted me to join. This is the kind of thinking that is exactly what is wrong with our workforce and education system. Too many people think that without college, you will have nothing, or you will have to work "harder" to get it. Complete and utter crap. Everyone is told they cannot have the "good things" in life without college or a desk or corporate job. Idiots. The guy holding operating the air-conditioned grader I passe don the highway this morning is probably making twice what you would think he is in a year and has a SKILL. Do you understand what that is? Not an education or a certification, a SKILL. Something he can take anywhere in the country or the world and offer an employer. A good mechanic can and will be able to find a job anywhere. Welders, carpenters, equipment operators, electricians, plumbers, excavators, concrete workers, etc. will ALWAYS be able to find work. It is beyond amazing that the educational system in this country cares more about Little Johnny knowing how to use a computer than being able to put food on his table and live on his own. Much better for him to go 50-60K in debt going to college then using the computer skillz he learned in "school" to surf the internet while on break at Starbucks. Personally I went to college, got a degree in Psychology and never even applied for an internship. I did however spend the last 25 years (since I was 15) learning all I could about racing cars. I suffered for my art, working for companies that could not pay me as much as I really needed, living paycheck to paycheck and beyond, and generally spending every dime I did have on cars, racing cars, or stuff I needed to race cars. I have been fortunate to work with some of the best in the feild and now have my own shop and with any luck will continue to do OK. But I freely admit I suffered through the learngin phase. Maybe thats what is wrong with the education system, the whole thing teaches us to avoid pain, stress, and hardship. IMHO and throughout my lifes experience nothing good comes without a little pain, so teaching anything else is a huge dis-service to the "yewts" of America. They never learn that life is rough until they are out of college and cannot find a job and have to move back home, or worse. There obviously is a need for white collar workers as well, and I mean to take nothing away from that section of the workforce. However, blue collar and skilled tradespeople are just as valuable, just as respectable, and often have better job security and do not deserve the stigmas associatted with them by our educational system.

Don Walker GRID-1 Motorsports GRID-1.net

Toyman01 wrote: I hated school with a burning hatred of epic proportions. I didn't go to college. Hell I didn't even finish high school. I took the GED and left home. If there had been a good vocational school around I probably would have loved it. I have done everything from dig ditches to clean things. From manage stores to run a company. Started at $6.00 an hour 25 years ago, working in a warehouse. Last year I made more than the BS average in the chart above, by a good bit. College is overrated. I don't miss going. I guess my posts would have better grammar if I had and thank God for spell check.

No offense, but your experience has so little... "grounding" in this day and age that it really doesn't apply. I'm happy it worked for you 25 years ago, but things have changed A LOT. And at the same time, you are probably an exceptional person who made it work. Nowadays, you will NOT be managing a store or running a company without a degree, unless you own said company.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that above and beyond your experience, the world has truly changed and I think you need to recognize that.

sanman wrote: A decent mechanic charges about a much per hour as I do on a good day.

This is where I need to disagree and give you all something to think about. A good SHOP charges that much. The technicians have been getting the shaft more and more lately. I'm an ASE master tech with 18 years experience. As shop rates have spiraled up my pay has barely kept up with inflation. On top of that the only way to get a raise in this business is to change jobs. This is partly because of the perception that any monkey could do my job and do it well. Same for the other trades. For every independent plumber or builder making big bucks there are 100 employees doing the same dirty job for a quarter of what you're paying.

I agree that perceptions need to change in order to increase the number of skilled tradesmen. You know what will really get more of us out there? Bring the pay scale up to where it needs to be. I'm constantly taking classes to keep up with the latest technology, I've paid $100k in tools, and I've had almost two decades of hard earned experience. Why am I looked down on by the doctors whose cars I fix? Until the pay changes the respect will never come.

Zomby woof wrote: Maybe the wages in your area are low, but the guys that I work with, and that have worked for me make close to, if not 6 figures.

I was one of those guys 6 years ago. I still couldn't afford a decent house in that area-Maryland, a starter home is a $200k townhouse. So I moved south and took a pay cut. Since then my local shops have raised the rates higher than what my old shop up north charged and yet my pay has stayed flat. The same with all my co-workers.

I'm knocking on 40 and managed to stay fairly healthy, but I'm looking into changing careers soon. I know too many guys with arthritis and back problems that are just a few years older than me. I still love what I do and will continue as a hobbyist. When a kid asks me about becoming a mechanic I tell them one word: don't. Even if you love it this job will kill you. If I had it all to do over again, I would have gone into IT. My friends in that business complain just as much as I do, but not one has to worry about going home with oil and rust in their hair after working for free because the customer is doing the sales manager.

HiTempguy wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: I hated school with a burning hatred of epic proportions. I didn't go to college. Hell I didn't even finish high school. I took the GED and left home. If there had been a good vocational school around I probably would have loved it. I have done everything from dig ditches to clean things. From manage stores to run a company. Started at $6.00 an hour 25 years ago, working in a warehouse. Last year I made more than the BS average in the chart above, by a good bit. College is overrated. I don't miss going. I guess my posts would have better grammar if I had and thank God for spell check.

No offense, but your experience has so little... "grounding" in this day and age that it really doesn't apply. I'm happy it worked for you 25 years ago, but things have changed A LOT. And at the same time, you are probably an exceptional person who made it work. Nowadays, you will NOT be managing a store or running a company without a degree, unless you own said company. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that above and beyond your experience, the world has truly changed and I think you need to recognize that.

You just started in the work force. Come back to the table when you have some real experience

I'm like Toyman. I have a grade 9 education, but never did get a diploma. I got promoted through hard work, lied about my education to get into apprenticeships, and worked my way up from there. It still can be, and still is done today. Last year I had 30 tradesmen working for me, and a lot of them started the same way.

Work ethic wins out over school every single time. I've worked in industry long enough to know that, and some day you'll learn that, too.

HiTempguy wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: I hated school with a burning hatred of epic proportions. I didn't go to college. Hell I didn't even finish high school. I took the GED and left home. If there had been a good vocational school around I probably would have loved it. I have done everything from dig ditches to clean things. From manage stores to run a company. Started at $6.00 an hour 25 years ago, working in a warehouse. Last year I made more than the BS average in the chart above, by a good bit. College is overrated. I don't miss going. I guess my posts would have better grammar if I had and thank God for spell check.

No offense, but your experience has so little... "grounding" in this day and age that it really doesn't apply. I'm happy it worked for you 25 years ago, but things have changed A LOT. And at the same time, you are probably an exceptional person who made it work. Nowadays, you will NOT be managing a store or running a company without a degree, unless you own said company. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that above and beyond your experience, the world has truly changed and I think you need to recognize that.

You know, a lot of people said the same thing to me 25 years ago. As long as a person chooses to believe it, you're right, they will never be more than a wage slave. I refused to listen to the people, 25 years ago, that thought the way you do now. A person in this country can do anything they put their mind and effort toward. With or without a college education.

And yes, I do own the company.

No matter how much I agree with what he said, am I the only one who got kinda pissed that our politicians apparently think they don't have anything better to do with their time than listen to a speech from a celebrity?

Toyman will back me up here.

When you were in school, did they not tell you that you wouldn't be able to find a job without a college education?

They told me that. They were wrong.

HiTemp drank the Koolaid.

I will say that education opens some doors that I had to force my way through. It also isn't for everyone. Until the education system realizes that, some of the kids are going to fight the system any way they can. Just like I did.

Zomby woof wrote: HiTemp drank the Koolaid.

No I didn't Mike! All jobs prior to my current have been labour based (except working the parts counter at cambodian tire when I was 16, but meh). I've done plumbing (residential and commercial, water and gas), heating (residential), mechanic, general labourer for the guberment, helped run a landscaping company, etc. In fact, I earned GREAT money doing what I did before. But I also saw earning potential ceilings in all of those jobs that there was no getting around.

I also have done my first year of an engineering degree AND finished my TECHNICAL (read, hands on) diploma in instrumentation. In fact, you should here the arguments I have had with my parents; I'd have never gone into an engineering degree if I would have thought harder about it, I would have became a journeyman mechanic (at least for a while). I know that if it ever comes to it, I will not suggest going to post secondary directly out of high school.

Lots of my friends are journeymen (electricians, welders, plumbers, etc). Hell, one of my friends dispatches for an oilfield company and makes almost 6 figures a year with no education beyond gr.12 and he's only 25.

However, some things that always come back to me is that most 1) Work a lot of hours 2) Break their backs everyday 3) Don't have a Monday thru Friday job with benefits from 8:30 to 5.

I made my choice to get higher education so I didn't have to be a pipe fitter (for instance) at age 50 working outside in -30*C weather a couple stories up like my father's friend does. And while I never said you couldn't be successful, unless you run your own business (only 5% ever succeed at earning the owner money last time I checked), you are NOT going to manage, run, or otherwise have a higher end job in many fields without education. That is the way it is, how you can deny that is beyond me. And again, running your own business is not for everyone; I've seen first hand how it can destroy a very successful person's life and force them into bankruptcy from being millionaire's. I can honestly admit that at this moment in time, I am not the kind of person with the vision (or idea) to create a business.

sanman wrote:

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

Yeah, but this includes things like secretaries and fast food employees that bring the averages down for the less educated. What you need is a comparison of bachelors, masters, etc and vocational skilled professions.

fast food employees sure but dont include secretaries.... youd be amazed at wat some secretaries earn. ie 18 to 30 an hour depending where they work.

well i am admittedly a hs drop out. with a ged. i didnt finish my associated in automotive tech (offered a job by the place i worked for before i went to school and couldnt refuse) since that time i have managed a few different shops and also been lead technician in multiple shops. i have earned over 100k a year. and honestly probably still could. but i hated it. now im working for a pizza place and it was only my third day today and my boss is wanting to try to move me up to asst mgr (which i have said no way to) why does it always have to be about money. live within your means and enjoy life. what fun is it to earn a bunch of money but hate your job? life is too short to not have a job where you look forward to going in each and everysingle day.

Isn't this the same group of folks who 3 years ago grumbled about how much skilled tradesmen made at GM, Ford and Chrysler? Or were they not making enough?

Zomby woof wrote: When you were in school, did they not tell you that you wouldn't be able to find a job without a college education? They told me that. They were wrong.

At the end of Jr High I eagerly signed up for Vo-Tech. All my gear head buddies were there and I knew I'd fit right in. They still sent me to the HS claiming I was 'academic'. I fought it to no avail. First day there I requested my guidance counselor. 'Max' said w/ emphasis: "you do NOT belong there (tech)... you're academic, you're college material!!" I disagreed again. So Max says... I'll cut you a deal, you do one semester in academic classes at the HS and if you don't like it I'll send you to tech. End of semester I show up bright n early in Max's office... OK, I still wanna go to tech. Max says, sorry son, you'd be too far behind in classes there now, you have to stay here. From that day forward I despised every day at that HS.

btw, my placement tests said I should be a social worker... yea, frickin' right, while my gf's tests said she should be a mason... go figure... but that was the 70's.

When Max died years later the school district acclaimed him as the greatest thing since sliced bread while guiding young adults into their careers. No he wasn't... he wasted a few good years of my life.... and he was one lying POS. After graduation I went to a 2 yr. trade school, rest is history: good jobs, good money.

HiTempguy wrote: Things have changed A LOT. And at the same time, you are probably an exceptional person who made it work. Nowadays, you will NOT be managing a store or running a company without a degree, unless you own said company. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that above and beyond your experience, the world has truly changed and I think you need to recognize that.

I work for a huge company and see this all the time when posting job notices - I kid you not when I say that practically every single full-time job we offer lists a degree as a minimum requirement. Tell me why you need to spend four years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars to be able to do basic administrative, clerical and sales work? You don't. But in the minds of Human Resources, requiring one is an easy way to help 'screen out the chaff.'

It's become education inflation - so much of the workforce these days has gone to college that a four-year degree has replaced the diploma the new minimum education threshold... at least for people without much work experience. Solid skills and job experience still holds a lot more weight than a certificate in many circles.