GM should merge with Ford, not Chrysler

Competition spurs advancement and stimulates the buying public. It makes more sense for Ford and GM merging than with Chrysler. Chrysler is different in the way it generates a model. Some ways better other way worse. It doesn't really matter HOW just that it IS.
Can you imagine the destruction of all the sub-contractors that Chrysler generates? I will do my best to avoid buying a GM or Chrysler product if they merge. I can't believe they'd be so short-sighted. Wait, I can. I just WISH that they weren't. Anyway, Ford and GM notoriously generate comparable models just to fight each other. Lately GM is winning that battle. They are basically twins. Chrysler is that weirdo, youngest brother, who is trying to compete but just ends up making something that is over the top or sub-par. Never does Chrysler generate something that is "equal" to the competition. Examples: 1) 300C-too good to be a Grand Prix or Malibu but not enough to be a Cadillac or Lincoln (in luxury only mind you). 2) Prowler-WTF? underpowered, over-engineered, cruiser? It's a Sheep in Wolf's clothing. 3) All the L-body chassis in the 80's (you and I like em' but we're the minority) 4) Invention of the Minivan. 5) NO luxury brand. 6) Dakota/Durango-too big to be small truck, not large enough to be full size. I like 'em though. 7) Dodge Ram-other than the Cummins, this truck only sells because of it's image and looks. (the new one might be different, although the Nissan is still faster ;) ). 8) Viper - Concept turned into REAL supercar. Faster than vette 1/2 the time and better looking. It's a winner but an expensive winner. 9) Neon - They make a high seller and good handling (some versions) and cheap and replace it with the Caliber. Hmmmm not a good move. Rename the Neon but keep that type of car going. 10) Generally their models are over-weight. That's a problem with the design team. 11) Jeep - Turning a house-hold name into a boring, soccer mom, everyday turd badge with models like the Compass, Patriot, etc.

We need a chrysler or AMC in the market to keep Ford and GM on their toes.

discuss.....................

History is doomed to repeat itself. I don't believe there will be a happy ending to this story regardless of the marriages involved.

2) Prowler-WTF? underpowered, over-engineered, cruiser? It's a Sheep in Wolf's clothing.

You haven't been able to buy a prowler for SEVEN years, get the berkeley over it.

Chrysler absorbed AMC for the most part, what didn't go to Chryco went to GM.

Cerberus needs to get out of the automotive industry, they found out that they do not know enough to make it work. They can't get rid of the labor force they have and can't hire the labor force they want. Personally a Ford - Chrysler union would be great for Detroit. Ford would assimilate the next gen Lincoln and Chryco 300, be top dogs in the cop car market again, get inroads to Mazda AND Mitsubishis small car engineering departments, Viper could be their Halo car, The Mustang would have a place along side Challenger Trucks would be an issue, but Chryco would be back in the medium/large delivery market with the Ford fleet. PLUS it makes Ford #1 in sales IF they could come up with a REAL plug in sedan for $20K. Remember Ford uses VWs TDI in non North American markets and Chrysler has a new agreement with VW.

Actually... VW+Chrysler makes even MORE sense.

All the current North American Chrysler platforms were conceived and developed in the era of cheap gas and that decision set has sounded the death knell. The turnaround is gonna be tough and even tougher now that gas is back down near $2.50 a gallon, some bright boy in Marketing is gonna say in a board meeting somewhere 'but we can now sell our current models again' and the funds for development of more efficient platforms will be pinched off. I agree with a post in another thread: Chrysler as we know it now will die within ten years. It may come back as badges on someone else's technology (Innocenti Cooper, anybody?) but that's about it.

Ford and GM can at least borrow their overseas tech as a stopgap while they try to retool their plants for more efficient vehicles. They too will be hearing the siren song of cheap gas at their board meetings as well and will be looking at the short term.

JmfnB wrote: Actually... VW+Chrysler makes even MORE sense.

You know... you may have something there... although I'd imagine that with Chrysler's M-B past, the VW-Porsche management would be leary...

But still... dump half of the current Chrysler line (or maybe the entire Chrysler line and just keep Dodge), sell off Jeep to pay off some outstanding debts and start building VW's here that should do better against the exchange rate, using existing plants and experienced work force (under a revised labor aggreement)...

JmfnB wrote: I mentioned this on the other thread but now that I have thought about it more Volkswagen needs to buy Chrysler. What would that get VW? 1: Dealers - lots of them all over the country, most of them have just been renovated. 2: A REAL truck line with established approved diesels 3: A halo sports car 4: Instant #2 behind Toyota which is what they want. 5: North American assembly presence with German funding. "Cheap labor" compared to Europe. What Chrysler gets: 1: Job security 2: Revenge on Mercedes It would not be easy: Current products: * KEEP Jetta, gli, sportwagen (30-40mpg small sedan/wagon) * KILL Passat, wagon * KEEP CC (make it the Passat, add a diesel then run it from 22k base to 42K AWD near luxury sedan) * KEEP Beetle, Beetle convertible (Add diesel for 40mpg) * KEEP Rabbit, gti, r32 * KILL EOS (I love the car but it is too fickle) * KILL Routan (Keep one "Minivan" the Caravan) * KEEP Tiguan (add diesel) * KILL Touareg * KEEP PTCruiser (Build next generation off Jetta platform, add diesel keep design similar) * KILL Sebring sedan, convertible * KEEP 300 (Make it LUXURY with a manual trans and diesel options) * KILL Town & country (Keep one "Minivan" the Caravan) * KILL Aspen, hybrid * KILL Avenger * (Can I double KILL?) KILL Caliber * KEEP Challenger (next generation reduces girth and adds Audi sourced quad cam V8 from RS model) * KEEP Charger (tool up primarily as low option/cop model "State sedan" as well as a mid option low lux model for families) * KEEP Grand caravan * KILL Journey * KEEP Viper * KEEP Dakota (add VW TDI diesel) * KILL Durango * KILL Nitro * KEEP Ram pickup, chassis cab (Simplify, Make a LD and a HD option. The Ram LD is the 1500 package the Ram HD is the 3500 dually package. * KEEP Sprinter (Get more on the ground as delivery trucks, sell with business incentive rebate) * KILL Commander * KILL Compass * KEEP Grand Cherokee (name only but build off Audi Q7/Touareg/Cayenne platform build a clean 6 diesel for all) * KILL Liberty * KILL Patriot * KEEP Wrangler, unlimited (Add VW TDI) * EXPLOIT GEM for city cars * EXPAND ENVI into VW lines. Now here is the trick, this leaves VW/Chrysler with 16 models. Sell them all in a single dealer setting. Premium markets get Audi dealerships as well.

JmfnB wrote: I mentioned this on the other thread but now that I have thought about it more Volkswagen needs to buy Chrysler....

Interesting... I only disagree in a few spots:

Toureg: Keep. It's considerably better than anything Dodge is currently building (I'd kill the entire Dodge SUV line). Plus, the Audi and Porsche versions help defray developement costs. A US assembly plant could help get the price down.

Sprinter: Kill. It's a Mercedes... and VW sells their own version in the Euro market they could bring over: http://www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk/

300 (or preferably Charger): Keep, but build on Passat/A6 platform.

Challenger: emotionally, I say "keep", but fiscally... doubtful... I just don't see the sales numbers ever really working for that car... ditto for the Viper in this context....as VAG isn't exactly hurting for "halo cars"... not with Lambo in the fold.

I still think Jeep would be better off sold to offset the purchase costs. And in the context of being part of VAG, only one of the brands would need to remain. Dodge or Chrysler - pick one.

I don't agree with combining the dealerships... VW and Chrysler would be better served by keeping the platform sharing as understated as possible.

My experiences with both VW and Chrysler (Jetta and Grand Cherokee to be exact) are about the same, they both pretty much have massive quality issues. I can think of better arrangements. Both of their product lines are aging to some degree as well. And didn't Porsche just buy a larger stake in VW?

To me, the only valuable asset still left at Chrysler is the Jeep name. Without it, I think they have nothing to offer except their facilities and dealer networks. If they had made the Challenger more competition to the Mustang, that might have helped, but their product line is evaporating. I've driven a number of the SRT vehicles and they drove nice, but a majority of that was due to MB engineering.

I think Ford should steer clear of major partnerships... Concentrate on the future as it stands...

E-

racerdave600 wrote: To me, the only valuable asset still left at Chrysler is the Jeep name. Without it, I think they have nothing to offer except their facilities and dealer networks.

Amen brother! I can't believe people are saying drop the Jeep line. To me, the best things Chryco has going for it is the Jeep name and the Cummins engine.

DrBoost wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: To me, the only valuable asset still left at Chrysler is the Jeep name. Without it, I think they have nothing to offer except their facilities and dealer networks.

Amen brother! I can't believe people are saying drop the Jeep line. To me, the best things Chryco has going for it is the Jeep name and the Cummins engine.

And IMHO, that is why Jeep should be sold if there were to be such a merger. Jeep should stay as an US-based and US-owned company... possibly aligned with another manufacturer for engines (either of the big 2.5... doesn't really matter). Personally, I think Jeep would function very well in a Harley-Davidson type owner/management situation. Whereas, Jeep ownership under P-VAG would end up even more watered down than it already is.

The Cummins is a licensing deal as much as anything... and as P-VAG doesn't really make a comparible engine (while very powerful, I don't see the V10 TDI working well in HD pick-ups), there would be no reason not to continue that association.

Not that any of this matters... if anyone of importance was reading this board, then Cerebus would have never bought Chrylser in the first place since we all said they were nuts...