Grand-Am, ALMS, IMSA... Nope!

Kabel, you're a little out of touch with what's going on with sports car racing globally. There is no GT1 anymore, anywhere. GT2 changed its name to GTE, and continues entirely unchanged in 2014 in the unified series. In 2015 or 2016, there will be a global GT rule set being worked on which will supposedly merge the GT3 and GTE to allow them to run together. Everyone fully expects this new series to run that when it comes out, and phase out the tube-frame GTs. you'll still see open tire in some classes, open chassis, everything you say you want.

2014 is a carryover year to allow as many people as possible from both series to compete. After that we'll start to see some changes. I'll hold judgement until then, and actually enjoy the racing in the meantime.

Scott Atherton on Radio Le Mans: when they combined the fan page databases for ALMS and Grand Am, the overlap was only about 10%. They sure do have a big job ahead of them.

DirtyBird222 wrote: While I'm happy the series combined and hopefully leading to larger fields with lots of competition; I'm sad, it means less racing to watch throughout the year with only one series :(. As long as they keep the Conti Tire Challenge series around I'm happy. That's the best racing on TV right der.

This is EXACTLY how I feel.

bravenrace wrote: I was originally a big ALMS fan, and shunned Grand Am because of the NASCAR tie. But then the big boys (teams and sponsors) started leaving ALMS, and Grand Am redesigned their ugly cars and they suddenly were beautiful to my eyes. So I gave them a shot. IMO, Grand Am runs a better show and racing, so if they "won", I guess I'm pleased. That surprises me.

And in all honesty, that is were I think alot of the "I think it will fail" or "I hope it will fail" camp really gets their negativity from when it comes to the merger.

If that is what you hang your hat on to define good sportscar racing, you are missing out on some of the best racing in North America in the Conti series.

Edit: Braverance, this is not directed at you, just the elitist "sportscar racing enthusiast" that only watches ALMS.

United SportsCar Racing sounds like a straight-to-bargain bin PS2 title.

The new series helmet logo looks like clip art that could've been used on an enclosed trailer at any amateur event at a road course, drag strip, or short track in 1997.

I am sure as with everything the logo will progress and change through time. Most likely when they get their new top level class hammered out and debut it.

And they can have whatever ugly logo and bland name they want for the series as long as the racing is good, that is all that matters to me!

I'm aware of the current "global" classing attempts. I'm implying any sanctioning body could reclassify each class into these groups. Since one of the prevailing arguments has been that so many people find the multiple car classes are too confusing. If there is no GT1 anywhere why retire the class name, redefine the regulations for each.

It has been a frustrating past few years that is ending in a disappointed way for the hard-core alms fan, but probably the only way it could have happened.

I do not doubt the nascar/France family clout, influence, & connections in the motorsports arena, I just hope they do a better job of growing this new entity than what I've seen them do with the nascar & grandam top tier events (as well as look to the cart/irl merger and not go down that horrid path).

Yes, there is great potential for sports car & road racing in the future with a single entity, it will be a few years before we see any real evidence of where it is headed. Having IMSA be the sanctioning body is good news, they helped make the alms racing fun & entertaining for me. But again we will have to wait and see what directive the series management imposes upon IMSA for this.

From a business perspective, it is great for mfg, teams, & sponsors. They can concentrate on a single series which means potentially greater investment in resources & sponsorships.

I'll full admit, I am a bit bitter at the overall racing scene these days. I've watched as every series I truly enjoyed, nascar, indy, cart, & alms, descend into the uninspiring mediocre specutainment we are left with today.

Indycar went down hill after the merger. I can't even find any of the races on TV. James Hinchcliffe was co-hosting WindTunnel last week and had an email read to him that addressed how far Indycar has fallen down the motorsports bracket. He did not get the humor in it.

The email said something like "Who is this Hinchcliffe guy and what is this talk of Indycar? I thought Indycar folded years ago."

I think comparing the Indycar/CART merger with the GrandAm/ALMS merger is not apples to apples. There was alot of bad blood between Indycar and CART. There really isn't that bad blood between ALMS and GrandAm. The only bad blood to be found is arrogant ALMS fans that think NASCAR is going to "ruin" the sport. The only thing I am wanting to see ironed out is how races like Petit, Sebring, and Daytona are going to fit into the WEC. I will really be disappointed if they stay off the schedule.

I would love to see Sebring and Daytona in the WEC. It will be reminiscent of the 1960s.

In reply to Anti-stance:

There is an American round of the WEC..but it's at COTA.

http://www.fiawec.com/races.html

In reply to Anti-stance:

Sebring, Petite, Daytona, etc. will not be part of the WEC, especially with the easily 40-60 car counts we could see in the combined series. They will however continue with the ACO/Le Mans connection and guaranteed Le Mans entries and various other collaborations as per their new agreement just signed (link)

Anti-stance wrote: There really isn't that bad blood between ALMS and GrandAm. The only bad blood to be found is arrogant ALMS fans that think NASCAR is going to "ruin" the sport.

Hey now, I think I resemble that comment.

I contend the avg alms fan is more passionate about that series than the avg GrandAm fan is about that series. And that accounts for the heated and sometimes, shall we say less than construtive comments. I have not heard or seen any grandam fans passionately opposed to this merger.

If the desire for a exciting and innovative series that requires a little brain power in addition to horsepower makes me arrogant, then yep I am arrogant. The staff of the imsa & alms are passionate fans of the sport, I keep hearing that Jim France is a big sports car racing fan, I hear Don Panoz is happy about the merger, so the potential is there. But I reiterate, what I've seen them do with the nascar & grandam top tier events does not instill great confidence in me.

kabel wrote: The staff of the imsa & alms are passionate fans of the sport, I keep hearing that Jim France is a big sports car racing fan, I hear Don Panoz is happy about the merger, so the potential is there. But I reiterate, what I've seen them do with the nascar & grandam top tier events does not instill great confidence in me.

What's that great quote from "North Dallas Forty"? 'I say it's a sport, you tell me it's a business. I say it's a business, you tell me it's a sport!!'

I think we're going to see team owners from both sides using that argument before it's all over & done. (sad sigh)

I am a big ALMS fan and was sad to hear about the merge but I really hope things turn out OK all the way around. I will really miss the LPM1 cars, like FGC said they are just amazing to see in person and the DP cars do nothing for me at all. This whole thing was the impetus for me to take my kids and drive the 17 plus hours one way to go to Sebring to see the Audis one more time.

My biggest fear is that the whole thing will fall appart but I sincerely hope they pull this off.

I love both series. I have been watching both series for a long time!

I like the racing in Grand Am alot better. For one, I can tell what class each car is in. (until earlier this year with the GX class).

I was watching Sebring this past weekend and had NO IDEA who was passing who. What class any of the cars were in, etc. The prototypes all looked like they could be in any of the prototype classes. The GT cars were slightly easier to tell by seeing how wide the car was. That didn't work out so well at night.

It seems the big difference between the two is the "perceived" technology advantage in ALMS. I would beg to differ on that comment. Sure, the Audis and other factory backed prototype teams have more tech than the Grand Am series. However, it seems to me most teams in the ALMS prototype classES buy a chassis from a known chassis manufacturer and then by a powerplant from a known entity. What I am getting at is that, with enough money, I could replicate most of the prototype cars with "off the shelf components" and go race. I could probably be competitive with the right persons on the team. That is not what technology is about.

Rob R.

in the end prototypes are prototypes whether they are LMP1, LMP2 LMPC, or DP. How the series determines and administrates the technical specifications for those prototype classes is the real difference & what shapes those classes.

GA has a more narrow rule set than the alms. While that makes the job of managing each class a bit simpler, in my opinion it makes it less interesting. I'm am encouraged to see an influx of non tube frame GT cars in this years Rolex 24 and am glad to see the alms GT class cary over in this new entity.

A big part of what drew me to the alms is the LMP class cars, them running with some cool GT cars was just an awesome bonus. What has made me less interested in the GA series (outside of the rolex 24) are the cars; nearly spec DP chassis, shells, with very limited allowable modifications and tube framed gt cars masquerading as production based cars. Call me pompous, call me elitist, call me arrogant, call me ray I don't care. I just want an interesting series, I want a team I can route for because as a team they are working to make the car better.

Dare I say I really have never wanted to see either series or even this new series get so popular that we can no longer enjoy the level of camaraderie, friendly interaction, and a relaxed enough environment where the drivers can walk outside the paddock freely and where we the fans still have the open access to the paddock at each race. We lose that, we loose another giant chunk of what has make sports car racing in America a great experience.

To be fair, the Grand-Am GT class has come a long way. In fact, of the 36 GT cars at Daytona this year, only 5 were tube framed (2 BMWs, and 1each Camaro, Corvette, and RX8). The other 31 were absolutely production car chassis.

To me, the exciting part about next year will be the DP vs. P2 battle. Right now DPs have more power and less downforce, P2s the opposite. Even once they get the overall average lap time equalized they will still make that lap time very differently. Could make for some great racing.

Or it could suck. I dunno, that's why I'm glad I don't actually make these decisions

Jamesc2123 wrote: To be fair, the Grand-Am GT class has come a long way. In fact, of the 36 GT cars at Daytona this year, only 5 were tube framed (2 BMWs, and 1each Camaro, Corvette, and RX8). The other 31 were absolutely production car chassis. To me, the exciting part about next year will be the DP vs. P2 battle. Right now DPs have more power and less downforce, P2s the opposite. Even once they get the overall average lap time equalized they will still make that lap time very differently. Could make for some great racing. Or it could suck. I dunno, that's why I'm glad I don't actually make these decisions

There were 3 tube framed GX Mazdas, too. The diesels are using a slightly lengthened version of the old Riley RX8 chassis.

Like most, I'm hopeful that the merger will insure a stronger road racing presence--- and with Grand Am / NASCAR $$$ and influence there is a good chance of that.

I just hope they allow the P1 cars back after a year or so, as nothing can compare to the thrill of watching those diesels. I also want to see the world's best battle it out--- I'll miss seeing top-class 24 Hours of LeMans winners here on U.S. soil.

The Audis are supernatural to watch (and hear) If they aren't the most sophisticated automobiles of all time, I don't know what are. F1 cars are pretty advanced, but IMHO they can't touch the Audis.

It's pretty cool to be able to watch the absolute pinnacle of sports car development--- stiff competition or not.

Jamesc2123 wrote: To be fair, the Grand-Am GT class has come a long way. In fact, of the 36 GT cars at Daytona this year, only 5 were tube framed (2 BMWs, and 1each Camaro, Corvette, and RX8). The other 31 were absolutely production car chassis.

Stop bringing logic and facts into this discussion. Please! (Actually, the Mazda6s are tube--not sure if you counted them or not.)

Seriously, I think the sanctioning body also has to look at their customers, which in this case includes the teams. How do you say, Okay, team, all of your cars and equipment are obsolete. You can't. Right now there are a lot of DP, LMP2 and GT3-type cars out there. To switch to some new, open rules just obliterates your field. Innovation is great and I'm all for it, but the history books have shown that it doesn't produce a healthy series.

Remember the "real" days of no holds barred Can-Am? Porsche (and Penske) killed it. Okay, so did the gas crisis, but you can't call 1973 a banner year for the series.

Remember IMSA GTP? Nissan put it on the ropes, and Toyota delivered the knock-out punch. GTP was healthy, though, when privateer teams could call up Porsche Motorsport and buy a 962. Once the 962 became an also-ran, the fields shrank.

Remember GT1 back in the '90s? For a while, you could call up Porsche and buy a car. Then Toyota and Mercedes-Benz raised the bar. When you chase away your privateers and strong independent builders like Panoz, maybe you do have to reel things in a bit.

Is P1 healthy? Good question. Sure, it's cool seeing the Audis, but is there any real racing going on outside of LeMans? I don't think P1 has legs in the U.S., as it's definitely an OE-only program. I would love to see the class added to future Daytona and Sebring races, though.

Personally, I'd like to see a strong GT3 rule set. When I can call Porsche, Bentley, Ferrari, Aston-Martin, etc., and buy a ready-to-run car, that's good for things. Leave some room for a one-off, but don't be surprised when most fail to take the green.

On the prototype set, I think we're headed there with the revised DP and LMP2 cars. We need Ferrari to get back with something along the lines of the 333 SP, but I can't complain too much since they're doing GT cars.

Over the years I have seen teams drop way too much money into stillborn pro racing efforts. They had great intentions, but getting these one-off cars on track takes resources that even rich guys can't afford. I'm not saying get rid of innovation, but don't ignore your core customers--the dudes putting the cars on track.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Oh yeah, also happy to see some lively, passionate debate on the subject.

friedgreencorrado wrote: Scott Atherton on Radio Le Mans: when they combined the fan page databases for ALMS and Grand Am, the overlap was only about 10%. They sure do have a big job ahead of them.

then you might find this tid-bit I found in another forum intersting:

We listened to Speed's audio feed on a track radio early Saturday evening at the race. During commercial breaks you continue to hear the announcers talking with each other. In the break just before Scott Atherton's interview, we heard him talking "off-air" with his interviewer. An interesting concern he shared was that their fan data shows only a 10 percent fan crossover interest between the two series. Don't know if he meant 10 percent of ALMS fans are interested in Grand Am, vice versa, or both fan bases. He was clearly dismayed with the level of anti-merger sentiment in evidence at Sebring, and mentioned a t-shirt he saw on one guy which said he wouldn't return to Sebring next year after 25 years there. The back of this guy's shirt said he'd rather watch a turd than a DP. Anyway, after a minute or two they realized they were on air and you could hear hands covering mikes. Atherton went on to give his interview, saying how well merger activities are progressing and how well everyone is working together.

When Sebring (and ALMS in general) started running the 'lesser' teams out, they ruined racing. I remember watching cars that I saw at a SCCA Sebring regional just weeks before, running at the 12 hour. People like Rennie Bryant, Mike Guido and the like could actually run the 12 hour. Then the FIA stepped in, and the car counts went down, and the racing got worse. Any sanctioning body worth it's salt must make the racing accessible to anybody who can put together a competitive effort, not just to people like Scott Tucker.

kabel wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote: Scott Atherton on Radio Le Mans: when they combined the fan page databases for ALMS and Grand Am, the overlap was only about 10%. They sure do have a big job ahead of them.

then you might find this tid-bit I found in another forum intersting:

We listened to Speed's audio feed on a track radio early Saturday evening at the race. During commercial breaks you continue to hear the announcers talking with each other. In the break just before Scott Atherton's interview, we heard him talking "off-air" with his interviewer. An interesting concern he shared was that their fan data shows only a 10 percent fan crossover interest between the two series. Don't know if he meant 10 percent of ALMS fans are interested in Grand Am, vice versa, or both fan bases. He was clearly dismayed with the level of anti-merger sentiment in evidence at Sebring, and mentioned a t-shirt he saw on one guy which said he wouldn't return to Sebring next year after 25 years there. The back of this guy's shirt said he'd rather watch a turd than a DP. Anyway, after a minute or two they realized they were on air and you could hear hands covering mikes. Atherton went on to give his interview, saying how well merger activities are progressing and how well everyone is working together.

I really don't doubt that the merger itself is going well--inside the sanctioning bodies themselves. Outside of it, he's right. There's a lot of animosity on the fans' part. On the ALMS side, anyway (sometimes I think the Grand Am fans didn't even know ALMS existed). To me, it's good that Atherton at least knows the scope of the problem ahead, even if he doesn't want to talk about it in public.

I guess I just don't get it then. I am a fan of road racing, first, foremost, and last. ALMS, Grand Am, World Challenge, Indycars, NASCAR, Lemons, I don't care. Put cars on a road course (preferrably Watkins Glen ) and put it on TV (or the internet) and I will watch it and love it. Period.

I just don't get the "If you do X, Y, Z, or too much of X and Y with not enough of Z, then you've RUINED the series and I won't watch it!!" What are you going to do, just be mad every Sunday? I see the passion and opinions and criticism for both sides and I get it, that's great. Go advocate every day and let the series know what you'd like to see them do. But at the end of the day let's just all go racing and be happy that there's still a series to complain about. We could all be watching golf... :shudder:

I'll tell you what made me gear towards the side of Grand-Am: when Mr. Panoz and Co. ran people like Jim Downing out of the series. I'm with Mr. Racerfink, as young as I was that was happening (local folk racing in the 12 and 24 hour) I do remember seeing huge fields at Sebring with people my parents and family knew from around town racing in their cars.

I feel like the ALMS was trying to appeal to an elitist crowd the whole time they've been operating and they only wanted the upper echelon to be in their fields and attend their events. 10 years ago the Sebring infield throughout the whole week was an awesome time to be had. As a teenager I witnessed some crazy things. Now it's like going to a retirement home due to the amount of law enforcement Mr. Panoz has brought in and how much they've cracked down on the shenanigans. I understand safety and so on and wanting to make it a family affair but that's like the cities of New Orleans and Key West pulling back the reigns on Mardi Gras and Fantasy Fest.

You couple that nonsense with driving out smaller teams like that of which Jim Downing ran and that fans absolutely loved and you end up here where you have to merge with the competition because you know deep down you made some bad mistakes by trying to drive out the heart of your fanbase ('Mericans) and your company is dying. The fact they went to mainly airing on ESPN3 of all things is proof and trying to justify it as "progressing to the technology age" or some PR babble...