Grassroots Off-Roader Take 3

Ok. I've read the other off-road threads with some interest as I've been toying with the idea of a 4x4 of some sort. For the sake of discussion let's say my budget for buy-in is $4-5k with about half that again for any mods.

It seems that everybody is a big fan of the Samurai, but I'd really like something with a bit more room for mrsbilly3 and the kids. The same goes for the CJ/Wranglers.

That brings me to either an XJ Cherokee or maybe one of the Tracker/Sidekick/Vitara cousins (hereinafter: Sidekick). Obviously, the the XJ has more family room, but I sort of like the "more with less" capabilities of the Sidekick. (I do drive a Miata after all.) It looks like I can get about a 10 yr old specimen of either with under 100k miles in my price range.

So, here's my questions:

1. Which of the XJ/Sidekick makes a better runabout/casual off-roader and why? If I do this, it will probably see just as many miles as a "mall-terrain" vehicle as off-road, so I don't need a serious rock crawler or mudbogger. However, I'd like something that will be pretty capable with moderate tires (30-31") and a mild lift (2-3"). For frame of reference, let's say I want to use it for trails similar to those used to accessing abandoned mining towns in southern Colorado. (Moderate, but not extreme.)

2. If the answer to #1 is Sidekick, which generation and/or 2-door or 4-door. Are the capabilities of the 2-door and the 4-door the same within each generation? It seems like there's some loss of ruggedness in the rack and pinion steering of the 2nd generation, but is this really an issue?

3. What is the nearest GRM equivalent in the 4x4 world?

4. Am I totally off course on this, and, if so, what course should I be on?

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1062912691.html

buy that and be done. seriously.

Also, if you aren't feeling the mitsu, look at Isuzu Troopers. Thanks to consumer reports, they haven't held value well at all. Both of those trucks are not very popular in the US but are widely popular in the rest of the world where people actually use their 4x4 for more than mall crawling.

p.s. OME = Old Man Emu, an Australian suspension company that makes high quality stuff. Their lifts are smaller than most so you don't have to redo everything and in most cases, there is no reason to lift a truck more than an inch or two.

Thanks for the tip. I've recently discovered OME, and whatever I get will either come with OME stuff or be shortly upgraded thereto.

I hadn't really considered the Mitsu or Isuzu because they haven't turned up as much in my casual searches. I'll have to ponder that.

In any case, Denver is a bit farther than I want to go. However, that truck is pretty much the kind of thing I'm after, minus the running boards and plus a safari rack. Safari racks look badass (and will come in handy at the mall).

A lot of the cheaper lifts will make your ride pretty harsh.

Fit the biggest tires you can to get the best ground clearance, if you want lift, use tires for lift because this brings your diff's off the ground. 31" tires are probably the biggest I would try on stock sammy diffs.

If you want more tire, cut the fenders and run flares.

If you want even more tire, run a body lift (lifts the body off the frame)

If you need more tire and more articulation, then use a suspension lift.

You'll find that the factory suspension will flex out pretty good with a few minor mods. Run swaybar disconnects and remove the leaf spring clips to allow for full suspension droop.

If you start breaking things, stuff Toyota axles under it.

Shawn

+1 on the Isuzu - also look at post '99 Rodeos and Amigo/Rodeo Sports with the 4-cam V6. I live in those southern Colorado mountains and put 120,000 miles on a 99 Amigo and absolutely loved it, once I put a mild lift on it (so the same would apply to a Rodeo, identical except for the longer wheelbase and extra doors). Lifting them is easy, too - order up a pair of rear coil springs from an outfit in California called Valley Spring Works (just tell them your vehicle and how much lift, fugure $200), reset the front torsion bars, and bolt on a set of OME shocks. If you're handy you can do the whole job in a day. That will give you about 9.5 inches of real clearance, which is plenty for 95% of any wheeling you do. my Amigo averaged right at 20 mpg overall for the entire 120,000 miles, too (5 speed). Only problem was overly sensitive ABS, which was reprogrammed by a factory recall. No mechanical problems whatsoever over the whole mileage, either. Isuzu build tough trucks.

The value the XJ provides is unparalleled.

1. They are cheap to buy.

2. Parts are everywhere and you can buy used lifts very cheap from guys trying to upgrade.

3. Other vechicles are very capable, but have less of an opportunity of purchasing used.

For good family moderate wheeling rigs, see expeditionportal.com

I would agree that the xj is the right choice for you. Find a 4.0 HO if you can. There are few websites that I'd suggest. First is pirate4x4.com. However, they are not very tolerant of newbie style questions......so make sure you search first, and when you do ask a question, explained that you did search and you need clarification on the info. They are a little more on the hardcore side of things, but also grassroots as they like to fabricate parts rather than buy them. My favorite is http://forum.neow.net mostly new england based, but truly great bunch of people that would give you the shirt off their back. Lots of good info from people who have been there. Very friendly, and you don't have to worry about asking foolish questions. The downside is the classifieds won't be relevant for you as it is new england based. Then you have jeeps unlimited. I'm not a big fan. Lots of info if you can sort through the bs. It's like every other car forum that has gotten too big for it's own good.

Before you decide on the vehicle, think about the axles. Do you want a solid front axle? The advantages are much better off road performance, with a sacrifice to on road comfort.

If you want a solid axle, you can immediately dismiss the Isuzu, the Mitsubishi, etc. I know the Sammy has a solid front, but I don't know about the Sidekick. The XJ has a solid front. So does the ZJ (Grand Cherokee), and they are getting cheap.

Another good reason for an XJ just occurred to me. I should probably get an automatic if I want to have any realistic chance of having mrsbilly3 drive it. I imagine the Sidekick would be a bit of a dog with an automatic.

I'm going to do a little digging and see what I can find in the way of Mitsu/Isuzu.

Dave,

The Sidekick is an IFS. I've been trying to figure out whether my intended use is hard-core enough to require a solid front axle.

you know.. another one would be a land rover discovery.. Not as cheap as an XJ, but stil super cheap with more room.

Honestly, I prefer auto off-road...but that is dependent on the tranny and transfer case as to whether I like a particular 4x4 in auto.

just for example.. many rigs are for sale already built and at pretty good prices..

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24390

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23917

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15738

I'd thought of the Discos, as they seem cheap, but I have a fear (irrational?) of the expense of maintaining a Land Rover.

billy3esq wrote: I'd thought of the Discos, as they seem cheap, but I have a fear (irrational?) of the expense of maintaining a Land Rover.

A huge part of the "expense" of maintaining a land rover comes from labor rates. The parts aren't THAT bad.

The main pita is the electrical issues which seems hit and miss with these trucks. They'll almost always RUN.... just might have a niggling issue that might piss you off.

My Range Rover was rock solid reliable. As in... it got me where i needed to go. Without fail. Did it always get me there with interior lights, a working horn, working turn signals, etc? Nope.

Parts aren't that bad. Rovers North is a GREAT resource for parts at a pretty fair price. They'll be your best friend, and will get to know you by name after a few order from them. Greatest customer service ever.

Picking the right rover would be key. They won't leave you stranded, but lots of times it will have some little nagging thing that can drive you nuts....it'll still run and drive. However, if you want simple and cheap, go with the XJ.

I loved my Range rover, but I don't think it is a great fit for you. You'd end up finding one that was owned and neglected by a soccer mom somewhere. While rovers north is great, parts prices are expensive relative to an xj. Rovers aren't that hard to work on though in their defense...they just have a bad reputation.

OK, if you want an automatic, I'd flip my earlier comments about the Isuzu and go with the XJ. The automatic Jeeps are usually the Selec-Trac system which allows you to use full-time 4WD when you want it, which is great for patchy snow and ice in the wintertime. The gas mileage takes a hit, but that's the way it goes. Also, the automatic XJs with the towing package get 3:55 diffs, whereas the stick shift XJs were restricted to 3.05s - the main reason I didn't get one back in 1999, because I like stick shifts and the extra gearing is nice for towing, and the Isuzu came with 4.10s. I now drive a lifted Liberty six-speed, which has (IIRC) 3.73 diffs and works great for me.

I used to strongly favor sticks off highway, but having driven a fair number of both recently on the trails around here, I'd say that both perform very well, and you should go with whichever you prefer - either one will perform just fine.

The Jeep 4.0s tend to crack exhaust manifolds - headers are commonly available.

I think I may be opening up a can of worms here but unless you plan to rack crawl and go slow on washboard roads, I prefer IFS. Running the Rubicon on IFS isn't unheard of so I have no qualms about its durability. +1 on expeditionportal.com That place is great and has builds from a stock truck with a shell on it all the way to 6-digit builds of Unimogs.

i think i've said it in every one of these threads, but

pathfinder

www.calmini.com

will get you what you want, and there are pathy's of various age all over the houston CL. 3500-4500 will get you anything from a clean low miles early 90's to a high miles later 90s. 87-95 are the ones to look for, as they were still made with off-roading in mind. the calmini lift kit is 3" iirc and costs a scant $750. throw in the idler arm upgrade and some manual hubs and you can throw some bigger tires on and have toughened up the common failure points of the pathy. i almost pulled the trigger on an 89 2-door with a 5speed a while back, and kinda regret it still. nothing that clean has come up since for similar money.

jgp1843 wrote: ... patchy snow and ice in the wintertime.

What the heck is that?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. "Normal" winter weather isn't on the menu in Houston. When we do get ice here (once every couple of years) the city grinds to a screeching halt.

I stay home, not because I can't drive on it properly, but because nobody else can.

Thanks for the tip on expeditionportal.com. That's actually one of the more helpful sites I've found. NAXJA.com also seems to have pretty good XJ tech. Pirate 4x4 has lots of info, but I don't think I'll be posting there any time this century.

On the Land Rover front, random broken doo-dads drive me insane. Part of the reason I got rid of my E36 M3 was that I was sick of random check engine lights and there was not a thing wrong with my rear brake lights even though the computer would tell me there was about once a week.

billy3esq wrote: Thanks for the tip on expeditionportal.com.

I think when I get finally settled, no more moving every 8 months for work, I want to do an Expo style build for light wheeling and family camping.

Make mine a FJ60 or 62 with 1hz toyota turbo diesel and 5 speed from overseas. Add a mild lift, some creature comforts, and a tough tent trailer. Perfect!

or a tank like this http://forum.ih8mud.com/vehicles-trailers-sale-wanted/269363-1995-fjz80-locked-texas-truck.html

edit: When you are looking at rigs, especially family rigs, try to visualize how much room you will need in the truck. Since you will have little one the back seat in an XJ will have to remain upright, this will severely cut down the room you have for storage of gear. A roof rack can help, but remember weight up high will increase the tendency to roll. Try to also figure out how much room you will need for some basic tools, extraction gear(strap/shackles), spare parts, any camping gear, baby gear, and the list goes on and on. When I used to go wheeling, I would overpack gear and tools. The ammount I brought was seriously insane, but I was always able to drive her back home.

I'm not so sure one should sacrifice fuel efficiency for storage capacity. Getting 10MPG on the street compared to 20mpg of the XJ, just for a little more room...I dunno.

I've seen many XJ's get away with full survival gear and youngins in the back.

All the money you'd save on used parts you could invest in creative storage spots.

It's unlikely that I'll ever be on a more than 2-3 day expedition, at least without a visit to civilization in the middle I'm pretty sure I can fit what I need for that in an XJ. The spare can go on back, with a rack up top for a high lift jack, shovel, and bulky but relatively light things (e.g., tents, sleeping bags, etc.). Inside I can keep a couple of coolers, cooking stuff, tools, etc.

That said, despite the lack of comment on the Sidekick prong of my original query, I've pretty much eliminated them as anything but a day-wheeler for me, and, even then, I'm not sure I could carry everything I'd need.

PHeller wrote: 20mpg of the XJ

what xj do you drive? My buddies 2000 got 17-18mpg on a good day.

I think xj's are a good value, but there really is not a ton of room inside with the rear seats up.

I swear I used to get 20 mpg in my '98 cherokee sport, but now I only get about 17-18 and thats mostly highway. Maybe I need a tune up or something (or not use my right foot as much). I think the XJ would be the definitive off road, enclosed vehicle. Due to it's: long manufacturing run (1984-2001), the 4.0L L6 has been a proven way for durability and/or power and since lots of the equipment that went into it was developed from many different manufactures (jeep, amc, chrysler, dana, aisin, borg-warner...) replacing and upgrading should be a junkyard affair. They are dirt cheap (up in wisconsin at least) but rusty ones should be quickly overlooked. One of my favorite parts catalog is Quadratec. I'm biased, though, I like my jeep. (Oh on a side note, my dad's H3 with the small 5 cylinder feels weak and feeble compared to the 4.0L in my jeep)