GRM's new project car. No, really.

Thanks for the update...I'm curious to hear how the "upgrades" go and how the car takes to track (ab)use! You planning on running autocross or a real track? I'm particularly interested how well the pack takes to a good on-track thrashing and how the performance compares in EV vs HEV mode when the battery is depleted. Of course, the general "life with a Volt" is interesting too, but so far GRM is the only place I've seen somebody willing to do some actual performance improvements with this thing.

On that note, word has it you guys are doing an article about prepping an old Camry DD into something less horrible. These really aren't far off in concept, being daily drivers that you're asking more out of. One just happens to be new (more expensive, nicer, warranty) and uses little/no gas, while the other is old (cheaper, worn out, no warranty) and uses gas like normal. I think it'd be an interesting side comparison in the Volt article series if the Camry cost of ownership, lap time, and subjective comparisons were made.

Bryce

MrJoshua wrote: The Fox interview EV mileage was interesting. Any thoughts on why he was running out of juice at the 20-25 mile mark? Top Gear style shenanigans?

Thoughts...

Fox News = Faux News

It is the most fictional channel on tv.

amg_rx7 wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: The Fox interview EV mileage was interesting. Any thoughts on why he was running out of juice at the 20-25 mile mark? Top Gear style shenanigans?

Thoughts... Fox News = Faux News It is the most fictional channel on tv.

Uh oh-now we are getting political.

I think one decides they like this car before they buy it and plans on justifying having one. That's fine, we all do that with all kinds of cars . A bit skeptical of real costs of ownership and $ per mile in the long run... the car is expensive and has been a money loser for GM from the outset, which means same for GM's stockholders, of which 25% or so are... us, sorta, though not by choice. It isn't sustainable as built and sold. Current GM share price well below price paid for bailout shares... during worse market times. Not to get into an acrimonious wide-ranging discussion, but not a ringing endorsement for the current management, or people with oversight of same through controlling interest. Second, I drive a less expensive Passat TDI a lot, and if I take care of it and keep it I might expect to get well over 150K out of it. In that first 100K timeframe I'll buy, what, maybe one relatively inexpensive battery? I shouldn't have to rebuild an engine. Yeah, you plug it in, and it gets good gas mileage - for how many miles before a big cash outlay to counter a decline in battery efficiency? Or is it that you spend way too much because you drive it so little... in that case a used Civic would be less expensive. It's all a little sugar coated, just like the commercials, those being paid for by profits made on ..... pickup trucks? One way or another, it's all subsidized by something else. Just sayin'

That thing about the Volt being a money loser is, to be kind, premature.

Any new platform will require time before it pays off development costs.

I don't think the batteries go bad on modern hybrids, also.

The big problem, as with all electric or battery hybrid cars, is that batteries are heavy, slow to fill, expensive and don't seem to perform as well as an IC car.

What I'd really like to see is a racing style flywheel hybrid system because while batteries suck, electric engines do not.

JG, it's been awhile now. How about some further updates on your now months long experience of living day in and day out with a Volt.

What the???? I post this because the thread ends in June. As soon as I post, I see a whole bunch of posts that weren't there when I posted the question just a few minutes ago.

This board is weird. Maybe it's because it's close to Halloween.

Yeah, several newer ones appeared for me as well.

Anyhoo, the latest news is once we get some proper tires, I'm actually ready to start doing some track testing. I've got a set of KW coil-overs (Chevy Cruze spec, and we just guessed on spring rates, but we'll see how it goes) and a set of 18 x 8 wheels that should sportify things quite a bit.

So in the last month or so I've done a couple road trips. Nothing major, but well beyond battery range. Once the battery is depleted, mileage seems to be in the low 40s for me, but nearly all of that driving was freeway. Around town it may actually be slightly better since you're using more electricity for propulsion at lower speeds. Remember, the battery never completely "drains." Once it exhausts its capacity for electricity being the sole propulsion method, the Volt operates more as a "traditional" hybrid with both the gas motor and the electric motor(s) providing propulsion.

I think my overall mileage at this point is around 160mpg, and around 70mpgE. Our power is real cheap in Florida compared to the standard they use for mpgE, though. Still, I've only put a total of about $70 of gas in the thing in four months, so I'm not complaining that my numbers are a little lower than the typical Volt owner (who probably lives closer to civilization than me).

One thing I've definitely noticed is that the public is becoming WAAAAY more aware of EVs and plug-ins. There's a couple of Leafs and MiEVs in town that I see frequently, and I've even had a couple business owners ask me if I wanted to plug in while I was using their establishments. Of course, I've also had a couple businesses (hotels) totally blow me off when I asked if I could plug in overnight (and even offered to look up their local electric rates and pay). Some hotel chains are getting wise, though, and offering Level 2 charging stations (many of the Carlson properties). I definitely do what I can to frequent businesses that support creative ways to attract customers (yes, even those morbidly mediocre Buffalo Wild Wings).

jg

JG, I despise that mpge nomenclature. To be totally selfish, here is how I'd love to see numbers tabulated: How much electricity you used * how much it cost you to buy + How much gas you used * how much it cost you to buy. In other words, how much that 'fuel' of any sort cost you in reality. Then we could compare that to the average sedan of similar size to see what sort of cost benefit ratio there really is.

And then, of course, the road course testing. have you guys thought of contracting fat cat again to see what sort of custom setup they could come up with for such a strange application?

DaewooOfDeath wrote: What I'd really like to see is a racing style flywheel hybrid system because while batteries suck, electric engines do not.

This may very well be my misconception, but I was under the assumption that those racing flywheel hybrids were not using electric motors or batteries at all, just using the mass of the flywheel as a storage device to then power the wheels to augment the gas engine. No electrics anywhere.

Eating at Buffalo Wild Wings is possibly the bravest thing you can do for the environment. I used to get dragged there for trivia night all the time. Horrible.

Excited to read about a Volt with coilovers and sticky tires.

tuna55 wrote: JG, I despise that mpge nomenclature. To be totally selfish, here is how I'd love to see numbers tabulated: How much electricity you used * how much it cost you to buy + How much gas you used * how much it cost you to buy. In other words, how much that 'fuel' of any sort cost you in reality. Then we could compare that to the average sedan of similar size to see what sort of cost benefit ratio there really is. And then, of course, the road course testing. have you guys thought of contracting fat cat again to see what sort of custom setup they could come up with for such a strange application?

Yeah. MPGe is kind of dumb because electric rates vary so much across the country. Unfortunately that's the standard they've adopted, so we're stuck with it as a comparison tool for now.

Here's my particular numbers broken down, though.

2431 miles on electric + 792 miles on gas = 3223 total miles so far.

I've used 19.46 gallons of gas which comes out to 40.7mpg on gas, and figure at an average of $4 per gallon (gotta use premium) that's $77.84

My electrical efficiency averages 31kwh/100 miles for a total of 753.61kwh of electricity used. I charge mostly overnight when our power is the cheapest (under $.07 per kwh), but I charge some at the office when it can be as much as $.11-.12 per kwh. Let's say an average cost of $.09 per kwh. That means a total electricity cost of around $67.82.

So that's a total cost of $145.66 to cover 3223 miles or 4.5 cents per mile.

For comparison's sake, that same $145.66 would buy you 36.4 gallons of premium fuel or about 40 gallons of regular. If we divide 3223 miles by 40 gallons, we see that I'm getting an actual mpge of around 80 (adjusted for my local conditions).

jg

tuna55 wrote: JG, I despise that mpge nomenclature. To be totally selfish, here is how I'd love to see numbers tabulated: How much electricity you used * how much it cost you to buy + How much gas you used * how much it cost you to buy. In other words, how much that 'fuel' of any sort cost you in reality.

By the way, that's exactly what mpge tries to do, it just inserts values that are probably higher than most people are actually paying in the real world. They're certainly higher than we're paying in Florida, as my calculations showed.

jg

tuna55 wrote: This may very well be my misconception, but I was under the assumption that those racing flywheel hybrids were not using electric motors or batteries at all, just using the mass of the flywheel as a storage device to then power the wheels to augment the gas engine. No electrics anywhere.

While there are mechanical systems out there, most of them are electric. Typically a lot easier to set up controls for electrical systems and allows you much more flexible packaging.

Bryce

tuna55 wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote: What I'd really like to see is a racing style flywheel hybrid system because while batteries suck, electric engines do not.

This may very well be my misconception, but I was under the assumption that those racing flywheel hybrids were not using electric motors or batteries at all, just using the mass of the flywheel as a storage device to then power the wheels to augment the gas engine. No electrics anywhere.

Porsche uses an electric motor to spin up the flywheel and then feeds the flywheel energy back to motors in the front wheels. Not sure what Audi and Toyota are doing.

Audi has the rear wheels of the R18 e-tron powered by the diesel-flywheel hybrid powertrain. The front wheels are powered by electric motors that only turn on at over 75mph (due to regulations). The driver can select from six modes and the ECU determines when to activate the front wheels automatically.

The Toyota TS030 is a gasoline/supercapacitor hybrid. Since the KERS power goes to the rear wheels, it activates at any time (again due to regulations).

Mguar-you are comparing apples and oranges in your justification of wind or solar Vs. coal fired power plants. You can't use tax incentives lowering costs for an individual and then claim its a better deal for a society than the actual cost based price of coal. Electric cars may end up being the answer for a society, but not until the infrastructure grows and the technology gets cheaper.

Edit: I am a fan of the new technology and think its cool that GRM is evaluating one in a way you will never see done by another magazine.

MrJoshua wrote: Electric cars may end up being the answer for a society, but not until the infrastructure grows and the technology gets cheaper.

This here.

Right now there's a LOT of "free" energy out there being wasted. But while the energy is free, capturing it most certainly is not. Wind, solar and tidal energy are massive potential sources of energy to be harnessed, but all will demand infrastructure and all will come with tradeoffs that we can't even accurately predict until the systems are in place. I'm a big fan of vibrational energy recapture, too. Israel is currently lining all their new roads and bridges with zillions of transducers that turn the vibrational energy of cars passing over into power which is fed directly to the grid. It's a cool idea, but one which would take a massive rethinking of our infrastructure to pull off.

Then there's secondary environmental impacts to consider, like the dead birds that tend to show up at wind farms around migration season. I like clean energy, but I also like birds. Both have a role in the ecosystem, too.

But the real hurdle with alternative energy is all of the people who seem to take such joy out of the seeming failure or shortcoming of a non-traditional energy source. Instead of focusing on the limitations and using them as an excuse to cling to traditional methods, why can't people like that focus on the potential and help work toward a real analysis and development to determine whether it's a viable direction. (Actually, the answer is because usually those people are in the pockets of the oil companies, or they simply hate hippies and want to see them fail at everything they do because they're bitter, small-minded a-holes.)

jg

ddavidv wrote: I guess a Tesla was out of your price range. I want to like electric cars, I really do. The more of them people buy the cheaper fuel will hopefully become for the rest of us. A Volt is not Grassroots. A Citicar is.

OMFG... I used to work at a dealership that sold those which, BTW, is not that far from you.

ddavidv wrote: A Volt is not Grassroots. A Citicar with a GSX-R is.

FTFY