alfadriver wrote: BTW, for those of you complaining about the lack of manuals, can you please go out and buy new cars? If you don't, the current make up will continue to evolve and eliminate manuals. Or do I need to remind you that OEM's will always ignore the buyer of used cars. Always.
I think it's already too far gone. 
alfadriver wrote: BTW, for those of you complaining about the lack of manuals, can you please go out and buy new cars? If you don't, the current make up will continue to evolve and eliminate manuals. Or do I need to remind you that OEM's will always ignore the buyer of used cars. Always.
That's a general problem that comes up frequently when discussing new cars on a forum where almost nobody spends more than $3k on a car. 
In reply to alfadriver:
If I was in a position to I would. But I also think they are not long for this world. I just really don't understand our facination with automatics ( aside from people on the whole thinking of driving as a chore and wanting to be as far removed from it as possible). Manuals, as a rule cost less to buy, are cheaper to maintain and just make sense in small cars. Oh well.
Hyundai makes a great consumer product. They hit a lot of x's in my shopping list, but that's only part of what makes a great company in my mind.
Hyundai has yet to convince me they are a real player in the enthusiast market. I know of exactly 1 die-hard, autocrossing, vehicle-modifying, my brand over everything else Hyundai fan, and he started this thread. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!)
When I...
see more Hyundais at events
hear from Hyundai clubs
see the Hyundai Challenge series at my local NASA race
get the Hyundai performance parts catalog in the mail
*see some aftermarket support for their products
...then I'll think they've figured it out.
Look at Honda, Mazda, and Ford and you'll see what I mean. They aren't just making products, they're creating killer brands that inspire loyalty.
^ In case you didn't know... I'm running a C4 vette. Just thought I'd remind you. 
As for loyalty, they are doing so quite well. Most of the people I know with hyundais are on their second or thirds. They're starting to be come like the old SL Saturn customers where they are loyal to the cars because they were just what they needed.
As far as everything else on the list.... we're talking about a car company that 5 years ago made nothing anyone would even bother to look at here. Now they offer several. Give them time. They haven't had 50+ yearsto F things up like everyone else.
And prior to that ran a Suzuki Swift.
What this all says, i have no idea. Other than that Hyundais make good appliances maybe?
I admit, if i were in the market for a new appliance/DD-and-nothing-else, i'd take a long hard look at Hyundai, despite how often i rib Bob about it.
Gen Coupe has shown to be a fun car.....
Bobzilla wrote: ^ tHIS. I've been saying for a couple years that Hyundai is where Toy/Hon where in the mid 80's. Only... they had to overcome the stigma they created called the "Excel".
So, after 24 years of sales, Hyundai is now where Toyota and Honda were...24 years ago?
Good news perspective:
Hyundai sales (YTD 10/10) = 452,703 (10/10 month = 42,656)
Ford F-Series pickup sales (YTD 10/10) = 434,920 (10/10 month = 49,041)
So, if Hyundai has a couple of good months, they can surpass F-Series pick up sales.
Bad news perspective:
The Azera and Veracruz need to go away...now, based purely on sales figures. Again, based on sales alone, the Genesis needs attention.
To answer the question if they "figured it out"?: No, not yet.
I do sub-contracted work for Hyundai here in Alabama, and I would love to kill most of them. Having a translator all the time is annoying and they have no concept of how I to "MY" work.
OTT I think they make a great car, and to some degree "Get it" .But I'll keep my Mazda/ Ford products
Tom Heath wrote: Hyundai makes a great consumer product. They hit a lot of x's in my shopping list, but that's only part of what makes a great company in my mind. Hyundai has yet to convince me they are a real player in the enthusiast market. I know of exactly 1 die-hard, autocrossing, vehicle-modifying, my brand over everything else Hyundai fan, and he started this thread. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!) When I... *see more Hyundais at events *hear from Hyundai clubs *see the Hyundai Challenge series at my local NASA race *get the Hyundai performance parts catalog in the mail *see some aftermarket support for their products ...then I'll think they've figured it out. Look at Honda, Mazda, and Ford and you'll see what I mean. They aren't just making products, they're creating killer brands that inspire loyalty.
Tom,
From an enthusiasts point of view, I agree with you. But it looks like Hyundai is really just beginning to make passes at those markets. The Accent, Elantra, Santa Fe, Enterouge, etc...have never been intended for anything but the "point A to point B" market, which they've succeeded. Time will tell if the Genesis coupe is just the start of a push towards the enthusiast market ...the Scoupe and Tiburon don't count as enthusiast cars....
JFX001 wrote:Bobzilla wrote: ^ tHIS. I've been saying for a couple years that Hyundai is where Toy/Hon where in the mid 80's. Only... they had to overcome the stigma they created called the "Excel".So, after 24 years of sales, Hyundai is now where Toyota and Honda were...24 years ago? Good news perspective: Hyundai sales (YTD 10/10) = 452,703 (10/10 month = 42,656) Ford F-Series pickup sales (YTD 10/10) = 434,920 (10/10 month = 49,041) So, if Hyundai has a couple of good months, they can surpass F-Series pick up sales. Bad news perspective: The Azera and Veracruz need to go away...now, based purely on sales figures. Again, based on sales alone, the Genesis needs attention. To answer the question if they "figured it out"?: No, not yet.
It took Honda 30 years to sell one million vehicles....and they didn't build the excel.
Are they perfect? Absolutely not. Are they moving in the right directions? Absolutely. Find me a new car (besides the new Z) that is lighter than it's predecessor, has more power and achieves higher mpg's while still remaing the same price point and offering more.
That is my point. While everyone else is blimping up, getting heavier and losing fuel efficiency hyundai is moving the other direction. I thought this place would appreciate that move more than anywhere else.
used to have an 81gtv6 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: If I was in a position to I would. But I also think they are not long for this world. I just really don't understand our facination with automatics ( aside from people on the whole thinking of driving as a chore and wanting to be as far removed from it as possible). Manuals, as a rule cost less to buy, are cheaper to maintain and just make sense in small cars. Oh well.
Autos are easier. When cars are appliances, which they are for 95-99% of the market, easy is good. Worth the money and risk (which is small, if you factor in clutch replacements for morons).
Oh, and for 99.5% of the driving population, autos are smoother. For the 10% of drivers who buy manuals, I'd say that leave 0.5% who are decent at it. And that does matter.
It is what it is, and unless people who buy new cars start demanding more manuals, all we can do is complain.
One of these days, I'll have to drive a Hyundai. The Hyundai/Kia technical center is in Ann Arbor.... http://www.hatci.com/
Bobzilla wrote: Are they perfect? Absolutely not. Are they moving in the right directions? Absolutely. Find me a new car (besides the new Z) that is lighter than it's predecessor, has more power and achieves higher mpg's while still remaing the same price point and offering more.
the latest mustang iteration comes to mind...
Strizzo wrote:Bobzilla wrote: Are they perfect? Absolutely not. Are they moving in the right directions? Absolutely. Find me a new car (besides the new Z) that is lighter than it's predecessor, has more power and achieves higher mpg's while still remaing the same price point and offering more.the latest mustang iteration comes to mind...
You sure? http://beta.edmunds.com/ford/mustang/2011/features-specs.html?style=101274490 shows the 2010 V8 at 3401lbs, the 2011 at 3603lbs
It's not that I don't appreciate their efforts or their current product lineup, I'm just not ready to announce that they've graduated yet. They aren't just building cars, they are building a brand...I want Hyundai to take that next big step for the enthusiasts and customers. I want to be their fan.
They've already done most of the hard stuff. It's marketing and support from here, spiced with a few special models aimed at enthusiasts like you and I.
For instance:
Honda supported the Honda Challenge series, as well as numerous sponsorship packages with sanctioning bodies from Indycar to Autocross. In the last couple of years they've made a huge effort with the Honda Performance Development program, even if their product lineup for our market segment is "soft" at the moment.
Mazda has an incredible support program for amateur racers. Parts are super cheap. Tracks and events across the country are littered with stickers, T-shirts, and other swag.
Ford Racing has a huge presence in just about every corner of the motorsports world. When the Focus was brand new, they offered their own aftermarket parts, and they're already doing the same with the Fiesta. I don't even need to mention the Mustang.
Subaru gave away SCCA memberships with every new WRX or STI sold in 2002-2004. Good move, even if some dealerships used it for evil. (I didn't have that problem, and I was pretty public about my use of a then-new car on lease.)
I am such a converted Hyundai fan that I have a new 2011 Elantra-Touring 5-door (I30CW) in the driveway...fully loaded 5speed--leather, heated seats, moonroof etc. etc. for 18K...and the best warranty out there. Yep. I am a believer.
PS--yes, it is FUN to drive too--30% stiffer suspension than the Elantra sedan and a OEM B&M shifter...
Toyota did it recently, but no more.
Tom: While I agree with all that, Honda had been a SUCCESSFUL carmaker in the us for over 35 years before they started with all the side projects. Even with that, what are they churning out for the true enthusiast at a price an enthusiast can afford? Sure, the Civic Si is neat, but it's getting dated quickly and priced in the low to mid 20's?
Mazda is the true standout. They don't have anything remarkable.... their quality is so-so, their mainstream cars are blah. But they 3 and the Miata have really carried them in our circle for years and they know that. So they keep feeding us what we want.
Subaru is living off it's rally successes to sell to the enthusiast, but even their last few cars have gotten boring. Yes, they are still 300hp turbo awd cars that can be fun, but they lost taht edge.
Ford's been doing this longer than anyone else. I would hope bynow they figured ther crap out. Give Hyundai 80 more years to figure it out.... lol
You also have to remember that the world economy is in a current state of unease. During this time, while the rest of the world has lost market share, or broken even, they're growing. They're selling more vehicles than ever before. Rule #1 of any business, make a solid foundation before you go playing around. I think that's what they're doing now.
The R-spec took about 4 months after the release of the Gen Coupe to make it to market. The Sonata turbo took another 2 months from release of the mainstream car. I imagine that these will likely follow suit. Rumor for a 2 door Elantra with a 2.0L Nu in the 175hp range is what the Hyundai forums/clubs are hearing. If they get the handling down like the Forte, it'll be a hit I'm sure.
Well, not sure if it matters, but Hyundai has put some sponsorship dollars into Rhys Millen and his Formula D and Pike's Peak efforts. Sure, that's not a full-on race series, but they ARE putting at least some of their dollars into motorsports.
They're getting somewhere.
In reply to ReverendDexter:
That had previously as well. They were title sponsor of the Mount Washington hillclimb, back when Buffum and company were running "Tiburons" in scca pro-rally.
I don't think it's quite fair judge based on how long the company has existed; we live in the 21st century, and the history is there for us all to learn from. Ford Motor company was started with money made from motorsports competition. The good news is that it's never too late for a manufacturer to get involved.
A bit of Ford Sweepstakes history.
I'd also like to point out how happy I am that this is a sane discussion instead of a passion-fueled shouting match. I love you guys.
WilberM3 wrote: i just saw a 2011 3 door listed on hyundai's website. until they offer the 2.0T sonata with a manual gearbox they dont get it.
Close. Should be:
until they offer an Acccent 2.0T with a manual gearbox they dont get it.
That might well be enough to make me buy a new car again.
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