Have a discussion with me on minivans as tow vehicles....

I have one big worry about towing with a FWD minivan: the differential and transmission are combined in one case which is roughly 2/3 the size of the average automatic transmission. This will inevitably lead to compromises, there's just not enough room to build parts strong enough. GRM found this out with their Caravan many moons ago, it left the RoSpit and trailer stranded in (IIRC) Tennessee.

So I say let Momma buy the minivan of her dreams then buy a RWD pickup or cargo van for the tough stuff.

Well, old Ford F150 and F250 can be found for a couple of thousand dollars. Can't you do both the minivan and keep wifey happy and have yourself a real tow vehicle?

Local guys hauls his Spec Miata with an older minivan. The rear suspension sags even with stronger springs. The race equipment stinks up the interior and it's perpetually dirty. It's a matter of time before his tranny goes.

^^ that appears to be the current plan. But she is going to drive the Sequoia, and if she doesn't have a problem with driving it, we'll get probably get it, since a nicely-equipped minivan isn't really any cheaper anyhow (hooray for big depreciation for full-size luxury SUVs!). If she doesn't like it, we'll go directly to the mall and pick out a minivan and be done with it.

Sequoia is a nice machine, but you'll never think you're driving anything but a massive vehicle.

Glad I don't have to make this kind of choice. We're D.I.N.K.s, dual income no kids.

DaveEstey wrote: Sequoia is a nice machine, but you'll never think you're driving anything but a massive vehicle. Glad I don't have to make this kind of choice. We're D.I.N.K.s, dual income no kids.

Yeah, but she's been driving a 4Runner for 5 years, so at least it's not like she's coming from a Mazda3 (her car before that). Minivan in reality is dimensionally almost the same size as an Odyssey (but heavier and more powerful). Either vehicle gives me the 2nd bay of the garage for my own uses, on the upside.

ProDarwin wrote:

NGTD wrote: If you get a minivan then you need something else to tow. 3500 lbs just is not enough to tow cars.

How is it not? 3500lbs is plenty.

The last time I thought I would tow a car, I borrowed a friends steel trailer (a light duty one), hitched it to my 98 Ford Explorer (rated for 4500lbs) and loaded my 97 Outback on it. The front end pointed at the sky made me change my mind and I drove the Outback to the rally-X I was headed to.

Since many cars are hitting the 3000-3500 lb range, even with a 1000lb aluminum trailer, you are well past the capability of most minivans. Most people are using 2000lb steel trailers so you are going to ask a minivan to tow 5500lbs when its rated for 3500?

We are talking about towing and towing safely. A few miles is one thing but setting off on a 5-6 hour tow, NO THANKS. Not good for driver or vehicle.

Sure, if you car weighs 1600lbs and you have a 1000lb trailer, but how many modern cars weigh less than 2000lbs, even stripped out?

Wish you were on the west coast, I'd let you drive mine to get an idea of the Sequoia. It's no minivan... sometimes I wish I could lower it and take it to a rallycross.

I will say that my wife loves RIDING in it, but as far as driving... let's just say her left foot has been in a leg brace for the past month. The Sequoia has been her DD by default since. I bought her a 128i for Xmas and she hasn't been able to drive it since Xmas because it's a stick and her clutch foot has been in the brace... until now. I heard her leave the house this morning revving to 7k out of the driveway at 0600 on her way to work this morning. This evening, she gleefully gave me the keys back to "my" truck and said.. "I love my car!"

Good luck!

DaveEstey wrote: Sequoia is a nice machine, but you'll never think you're driving anything but a massive vehicle. Glad I don't have to make this kind of choice. We're D.I.N.K.s, dual income no kids.

We are too, but I'm still having a hard time deciding on a tow vehicle.

I had originally decided a V8 06-09 4Runner, but nice/low mileage ones pull an incredible premium. Once I think about even the V6 being loaded down with gear, 1-2 more people, trailer/car........I'm getting close to the limit.

Now I'm starting to look at 08-10 Sequoia's with the 5.7, maybe a Tundra in the same gen. I don't want to drive a vehicle that big, but after being at the track all weekend, the last thing I want to do is stress about a 400 mile tow, because I haven't dropped the insane coin on an aluminum trailer.

Flex is a good form factor except no rear sliding doors. Anyone with small kids will who has had the privilege of using a sliding door equipped vehicle will know. The ability to reach the kids in their seats is incredible.

decisions decisions.......

Man, hard to come in here without sounding like an ass. Im always a little surprised that i seem to somehow have the most towing-with-small-tow-vehicles experience in a place as weird as GRM.

Consider: Tow ratings are full of E36 M3. You cannot compare across vehicles by their tow ratings with any effectiveness. For example, saying you towed with an explorer rated at 4500 and it sucked and implying that a van rated at 3500 must be worse, is a bad assumption. I guarantee any of the current 4500lb minivans would tow better than a 98 explorer. Also, towing with an MPV and saying it sucked so towing with other minivans must suck too, is another bad assumption, especially since a lot of them are like 40% larger/heavier than an mpv. Saying an Astro was rated at 5500 doesnt mean its rating was more accurate than the 3500 lb rated FWDs. It almost certainly would not tow 5500 lbs any better than an 08-up 4500 lb minivan like Irish is talking about.

Honestly, if you are scared about actually being on the wrong end of a lawsuit, just buy a big truck. That is the ONLY reason to give 2 E36 M3s about the factory tow ratings of minivans.

I've towed with a minivan before, but MOST of my towing experience has been with SMALLER tow vehicles. I'm talking 3100 lb tow vehicles, towing anywhere from ~3000-4500lbs all over creation. Yes i have towed 4500 lbs with a 3100 lb tow vehicle, several times, with more than one ~3100 tow vehicle. Ive reached a lot of conclusions based on EXPERIENCE towing with small vehicles, along with knowing a few things just based on common sense thinking. Here are some of them:

Distance between the rear contact patch and the hitch ball matters. The shorter the better. Trucks and RWD vans tend to suck at this (short Astros being one exception).
Lateral stiffness at the rear of the vehicle is very important to stability. Leaf-sprung trucks with tall-sidewall tires tend to suck at this. Shorter sidewall tires are better. Track bars are good. Not having leaf springs at all is better.
A van with ABS has better brakes than a truck that doesnt. IMO if you're comparing a newer "small" tow vehicle with ABS to an older truck/"big" tow vehicle without, the ABS almost automatically wins.
ENGINE POWER DOES NOT MATTER. You WILL be able to attain highway speed and out-accelerate loaded semis. GOOD ENOUGH. When towing, using more power than you need to just get down the road is a BAD thing. Don't rush!
Transmissions don't burn up from towing! They burn up from the power you put through them. If you are not in a hurry and not HORRIBLY overloaded, casual acceleration while towing will not damage your transmission. Is a trans cooler a good thing? Yes. Is knowing how to tell when your converter clutch is and isnt locked up a good thing? Absolutely. Would it be better if you downshifted and upshifted under light load, which requires paying attention? Definitely. If you understand the basics and pay attention you can avoid burning up your trans while towing any reasonable load.

I will continue to tow with what many here consider tiny, unsafe tow vehicles. Apparently i make up for it by being patient and alert, because i tow with tiny transmissions and tiny HP numbers and i dont wish for any more. Any of the current 4500lb minivans would be a massive upgrade from what i've been used to. Even an upgrade from my dad's 01 Ram 1500 ive used a couple times now. That truck could be rated for the berkeleying moon, but it doesnt have ABS so i'd take the Minivan.

For most people, a minivan is the right answer for family transport. But most people don't tow. Moving a lot of people + towing is what large truck based SUV's are for. They won't do the people moving or daily driver duties as well as a minivan, but they can do them. A minivan will be the better vehicle most of the time, but it simply can't do the work of a truck. When we decided we needed a do it all vehicle, we bought a crew cab Nissan Titan back when they came out. It could hold six people and haul or tow anything I needed it to. Fast forward to the present and three kids later, and my wife really wanted a minivan for daily duties and trips. Before plunking down a lot of cash on a new van, I picked up a very nice and very cheap fixer upper 2002 Mazda MPV. I fixed it and she drove it for six months. It was a terrific vehicle, and convinced us that a minivan was the right vehicle for most uses. The problem with it was that it was just a bit on the small side, and the truck was still the go to vehicle when we had the family and a fair amount of cargo. The MPV's problem was that the cargo area was pretty small, and the rear seat didn't split. With three kids, we couldn't fold it for more cargo room. Even though we loved it (I still think it is the best looking and most fun to drive minivan) we decided to trade it in on a new Sienna a couple weeks ago. We were able to make some money on the MPV, and we pretty much drove it for free for the last 6 months. I still have the truck for towing and other work. My wife loved the truck, but hasn't been in it since she got the van. That said, the van never would have been in the discussion had we not had the truck for the real work. If you have to have one vehicle, I'd say that a large truck/SUV is the only answer. Can you stretch the budget to cover a nice used van and a decent tow vehicle? Instead of a 30k minivan, maybe a 20k minivan and a 10k truck based SUV?

Vigo... don't get me wrong, I'd love a minivan for towing. I hate the gas mileage the truck gets. I like the driving motions my friends Oddy has. If my trailer was 2 feet shorter (its a 26' Airstream), I think I would do it. My Sequoia was used, and I got a really great price with minimal miles on it. Other than being huge, I do like driving the "couch."

There's plenty of Canadians using smaller cars / trucks for towing. Check out the Saturn and Jetta being used here... Jetta tdi and Saturn I think the price of gas is making them think outside the box.

Probably an "ideal" setup with awd.. Sienna Looks kinda cool!

OP asked about towing with a minivan. I merely stated my experiences (6+ years with the VW behind my MPV), observations (doable but not great), and conclusions ("better" options out there). Like most internet advise, take it for what it is. I happened to acquire a vehicle that couldn't legally be driven to events and my van was my only option, so I made it work.

bluej wrote: Ford Flex? Looks like you can configure it for a 4500lb rating.

I drove a flex for a few months, and now i'm driving a tahoe. flex wins the 3rd-row battle because FWD. i averaged 20 mpg in the flex, 14 mpg in the tahoe. my kids prefer the flex because (they say) it looks like a limo. my wife's friends say it looks like a hearse.

if you need sliding doors, minivan FTW. if you don't need sliding doors, flex may be the answer.

Thanks, and I have towed with smaller cars (when I was young, we towed a 20-foot sailboat from Seattle to Virginia with an Audi 100 (one way) and a Volvo 240 (4cyl) going the other ways.

I also had no issues with our current V6 4Runner towing the e30 to the track, so it's not like I am a "I need 600hp giant truck to tow" guy. I'm fine with something that will get the job done without sacrificing longevity or safety.

All that said, I'm fine with minivans as vehicles in general. My parents had one forever and I had one in high school. They're great. And I'm sure they "can" tow 5000lbs safely, but I'm not terribly psyched to tow over the rated limit for liability reasons, and for simply vehicle longevity reasons. If it was for local towing that's fine. But when I'm towing a car it's usually someplaec on the other side of mountains, or very long distance. And I may not have access to a normal trailer and may have to rent a UHaul (2200lbs empty) trailer.

Also I'll say that if my wife commuted with it or put a lot of miles on it, A minivan is far preferable sicne a big SUV is a guzzler. But she puts 7k or so per year on it (including my using it for a couple long trips), so the fuel costs of a Sequoia vs. Odyssey (for instance) is about $150-200 per year at most. I can deal with that.

In reply to Vigo:

The OP's question comes down to "Could You or Would You".

If I already owned the minivan - yes I would hook it up and see how it went. But if like the OP, I was looking at buying a new vehicle, why purchase a vehicle that is already compromised (heavily) for one of its intended purposes? Since none of his other criteria specifically disallow a larger vehicle, then I think its a better option.

Potentially hooking up a load behind a vehicle that is more than 50% above the tow rating is not a minor variance and although I think tow ratings are largely bunk, it is still a consideration.

As they say, YMMV.

I'm sure the answer to this is going to suck, but...

What are the legal issues with towing above the vehicle's rating? In the U.S. it is very unclear if the rating is for safety reasons, or if it is to protect the vehicle.

ProDarwin wrote: I'm sure the answer to this is going to suck, but... What are the legal issues with towing above the vehicle's rating? In the U.S. it is very unclear if the rating is for safety reasons, or if it is to protect the vehicle.

I can't imagine it would be hard for a large insurance companies legal team to show you were being negligent by ignoring the Manufacturer's intended usage recommendations.

Vigo wrote: ENGINE POWER DOES NOT MATTER. You WILL be able to attain highway speed and out-accelerate loaded semis. GOOD ENOUGH.

One of my friends towed an XR4Ti north from SC... with a VW Quantum.

He noted that he had proof that it could accelerate uphill in 3rd gear, because he had plenty of time to watch the tach, and the needle was creeping ever so slightly higher. (3rd gear is good for maybe 50-55mph)

In reply to Vigo:

Wow, you make it sound like my baja bug would be an ideal tow vehicle, especially if it had ABS, thankfully I know better lol.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I would seriously consider just getting the Mrs the minivan she really wants, selling off one or two of the other (5 vehicles you said?) and buying a proper, cheap old 2WD tow monster 2500 that sits around waiting to haul trailers, or old engine blocks away to scrap... a good old fashioned work PU-truck is as useful as a welder or a lathe.

I think this is the answer if you replace "sell off" with "in addition to". Selling off is just no fun. I recently saw a decent looking 4x4, 3/4 ton, big block, long bed, extended cab truck for a little over 2k. The paint sucked and it was 20 years old, but that's a hell of a lot of truck for 2k. Now that I traded off my 1 ton for an absolutely useless prostreet truck with a blown 383 I am also kind of on the lookout for a decent cheap TV. Of course after reading Vigo's post I may just slap abs on the Baja and hammer down.

z31maniac wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: I'm sure the answer to this is going to suck, but... What are the legal issues with towing above the vehicle's rating? In the U.S. it is very unclear if the rating is for safety reasons, or if it is to protect the vehicle.

I can't imagine it would be hard for a large insurance companies legal team to show you were being negligent by ignoring the Manufacturer's intended usage recommendations.

If anyone had been held accountable for anything they've done in the last 20 years I'd be worried. I just have to have my lawyer ask the jury if any of them had read the sticker in the door of their car and I'm a millionaire after my Kia rondo plows through a nunnery unable to stop the party barge that was hitched to the back of my airstream that was duct taped to a makeshift bumper hitch.

What about a '13 or '14 Nissan Pathfinder? 5000 lb tow rating and decent gas mileage ratings (26/20 w/2WD, 25/19 w/AWD).

From the minivan standpoint, my brother has had 2 Chrysler minivans and used them for towing a camper which was near the 4000-pound tow limit; no issues for towing (only complaints are quality-related).

rambler68 wrote: What about a '13 or '14 Nissan Pathfinder? 5000 lb tow rating and decent gas mileage ratings (26/20 w/2WD, 25/19 w/AWD). From the minivan standpoint, my brother has had 2 Chrysler minivans and used them for towing a camper which was near the 4000-pound tow limit; no issues for towing (only complaints are quality-related).

I looked into it, but 3rd row isn't any better than an MDX or other mid-sized SUV, which wife has already ruled out. Plus I have no interest in having anything with CVT regardless. They do look pretty decent though..