Have a discussion with me on minivans as tow vehicles....

You mentioned occasional uhaul trailer. Whatever you get, make sure uhaul will let you tow their trailer with it. I have an 07 Explorer V8. They won't rent me any trailer. Leftover policy from the Explorer/Firestone rollover issues I speculate. 07 Merc. Mountaineer would be okay. I have to use my jeep instead. Don't know if they have other similar bans?

How often will the 3rd row be used? Ours in the Explorer is perfect for once a month to avoid taking 2 cars, even for all day running around. Not weekly use though. It doesn't look it, but it is comfortable enough for adults.

klb67 wrote: You mentioned occasional uhaul trailer. Whatever you get, make sure uhaul will let you tow their trailer with it. I have an 07 Explorer V8. They won't rent me any trailer. Leftover policy from the Explorer/Firestone rollover issues I speculate. 07 Merc. Mountaineer would be okay. I have to use my jeep instead. Don't know if they have other similar bans? How often will the 3rd row be used? Ours in the Explorer is perfect for once a month to avoid taking 2 cars, even for all day running around. Not weekly use though. It doesn't look it, but it is comfortable enough for adults.

Pretty sure the Explorer is the big one. They didn't blink at my V6 4Runner when I towed back the e21 with one.

3rd row won't be used all that often, but when it is used it will be used for long trips with an adult back there, so it has to have good legroom. The wife says she wants to be able to carpool to kids stuff with other soccer moms as well, so I guess there's that. ...)

Trust me, I've tried to push the "smaller but still functional" 3rd row and she's not buying it for some reason. I've actually sat in an MDX 3rd row personally (I'm 6'0) and it was fine for my at least for a not-too-long trip. But of course the other downside to those is that the smaller trucks with the 3rd row up have very little cargo space (and one reason we need more is for the damn dog crates.....)

There are a lot of things out there that I would consider (MDX, CX9, and several others) if it was my choice alone, but she's pretty set on her requirements. Now I can only hope that my tow requirement is compatible with her not hating driving a big truck, lol. Else I'll be showing you guys my new Odyssey by next time this week, and we'll be the 5th house (out of 8) on the cul-de-sac with one :P

klb67 wrote: You mentioned occasional uhaul trailer. Whatever you get, make sure uhaul will let you tow their trailer with it. I have an 07 Explorer V8. They won't rent me any trailer. Leftover policy from the Explorer/Firestone rollover issues I speculate. 07 Merc. Mountaineer would be okay. I have to use my jeep instead. Don't know if they have other similar bans? How often will the 3rd row be used? Ours in the Explorer is perfect for once a month to avoid taking 2 cars, even for all day running around. Not weekly use though. It doesn't look it, but it is comfortable enough for adults.

U-Haul ban on Explorers is over for 2012 and up.

Wow, you make it sound like my baja bug would be an ideal tow vehicle, especially if it had ABS, thankfully I know better lol.

You know, one time i offered a guy on my Facebook a challenge to see which would stop better, his Tundra with an empty tandem-axle trailer (with trailer brakes, even) or my Dodge Dynasty with a tow dolly behind it. He didn't seem to think i was serious. I thought that would be an interesting test because i wasn't really sure which would stop better. I'm actually MORE sure that the stupid dynasty WITH the tow dolly would out-stop your baja bug even with nothing extra hooked to it. I dont think anything i said implies that you could take something that wasnt safe to begin with, and somehow be safer after hooking a weighted pendulum to the end of it.

Vigo wrote: I thought that would be an interesting test because i wasn't really sure which would stop better. I'm actually MORE sure that the stupid dynasty WITH the tow dolly would out-stop your baja bug even with nothing extra hooked to it. I dont think anything i said implies that you could take something that wasnt safe to begin with, and somehow be safer after hooking a weighted pendulum to the end of it.

Being able to stop in less space the first time (which is what ABS will get you) is an important factor, but it's not the only one. If you double the combined weight of the vehicle, then you're doubling the amount of heat that goes into the rotors for a given amount of braking. Planning on towing over any mountains? If so, I'd definitely want the vehicle with trailer brakes.

In reply to Vigo:

My baja accepts the challenge! It has all new brakes, so we're ready for you. I'm still not towing with it though......

If I ever have to stand before a judge for a towing violation, I sure hope Vigo isn't on my legal team. Your blanket statements regarding towing are irresponsible at best.

No one here has even attempted to ask the MOST basic questions, like how much towing experience does the OP have, how much the E30 weighs, or what the tongue weight is.

Without basic info like that, there are NO good answers to the question, other than a FWD minivan is NOT an acceptable towing vehicle for a nearly 5000 lb towed rig (2800 lb car + 1700 lb trailer + 500 lb in tools and occupants).

In Europe the TDI is rated for 3000 lbs. Why not use that??

With over 1,000,000 miles of towing experience, I might do it myself. I might even tow with the Baja Bug. But there is no way I am going to make ridiculous blanket statements to strangers on the internet suggesting something irresponsible and unsafe.

You are dealing with specifics that have NO margin for error. You could load the trailer once and it tow fine, load it a second time with the car sitting 1" further to the front and have a total disaster awaiting.

Buy a beater truck.

SVreX wrote: If I ever have to stand before a judge for a towing violation, I sure hope Vigo isn't on my legal team. Your blanket statements regarding towing are irresponsible at best. No one here has even attempted to ask the MOST basic questions, like how much towing experience does the OP have, how much the E30 weighs, or what the tongue weight is. Without basic info like that, there are NO good answers to the question, other than a FWD minivan is NOT an acceptable towing vehicle for a nearly 5000 lb towed rig (2800 lb car + 1700 lb trailer + 500 lb in tools and occupants). In Europe the TDI is rated for 3000 lbs. Why not use that?? With over 1,000,000 miles of towing experience, I might do it myself. I might even tow with the Baja Bug. But there is no way I am going to make ridiculous blanket statements to strangers on the internet suggesting something irresponsible and unsafe. You are dealing with specifics that have NO margin for error. You could load the trailer once and it tow fine, load it a second time with the car sitting 1" further to the front and have a total disaster awaiting. Buy a beater truck.

not that it really matters, but here are answers to said questions: 1. Experience: I'm not a trucker, but I've towed plenty of trailers....big 20-foot landscaping trailer with my GT6 on it, with a GMC 2500....20-foot sailboat with a Volvo 240 wagon (4-cyl), several times with the 4Runner. Several other times with various open trailers with various 6-cyl SUVs, plus my 8-foot utility trailer loaded up to max capacity a number of times (with the 4Runner). And my baby rally trailer with the e30, lol. I'm a fairly careful tower but I'm also very confident in my driving and maneuvering abilities when towing, assuming a tow vehicle that is properly equipped. I'm pretty anal about tongue weights, etc. It's the engineer in me.

E30 racecar probably weighs about 2400lbs (my rall-x car about 2200). Trailer we usually borrow is 1700lbs, but I've also towed my e21 (~2500lbs) on a U-Haul trailer (2200lbs) with the 4Runner with no drama.

Tongue weight on our usual borrow trailer is about 400lbs give or take.

I didn't mean to start an argument here, I was more curious than anything after stumbling onto the Airstream forum and all the talk of tow minivans. If we end up with a minivan, I have basically no intention of using at a tow vehicle, except perhaps in a pinch for something very local. In that case the intention would be to find something cheap/basic that can tow and just keep it around for that, while only working on it enough to make it safe and reasonably reliable.

We need a towing thread meme.

Something that's pretty important (at least in my book) along with RWD: the tow vehicle should not be the lightest part of the towing equation UNLESS it's designed for it, as in the case of an 18 wheeler. Which screws up things like 3rd row seats etc. I think that may be the case with the 3500 pound tow rating of a lot of minivans, the chassis powertrain etc may be capable of safely pulling more but when the trailer starts getting close to the weight of the tow vehicle or even over it, I do not see good things coming from that and neither do the car companies. Add to the aforementioned smaller transmission the forward weight bias and if you plan to tow 3500-4000 pounds I'm inclined to say 'go hunt something RWD'. FWIW, due to space limitations in my garage I'm sort of limited on vehicle size, the only rigs out there I'd replace the Trooper with would be a Rodeo, an Xterra or a 4Runner (and like the Trooper the 4Runner would be a tight squeeze).

Being able to stop in less space the first time (which is what ABS will get you) is an important factor, but it's not the only one. If you double the combined weight of the vehicle, then you're doubling the amount of heat that goes into the rotors for a given amount of braking. Planning on towing over any mountains? If so, I'd definitely want the vehicle with trailer brakes.

No, there are no mountains anywhere near me which is one reason i can do what i do. There are also no stock brake parts on my Dynasty other than the master cylinder and hard lines. It has 11+" disc brakes all around. Nothing special by modern standards, but more brakes for the weight than some other vehicles i have towed with, like Cherokees or Dakotas.

My baja accepts the challenge! It has all new brakes, so we're ready for you. I'm still not towing with it though......

I used to have an old G-tech that would do 60-0 and some other stuff. If i could find it i'd do the test and then mail it to you to try! I bet phone apps can do it now. I still have a 'dumb' phone. A brief google search suggested there are apps out there to do it if you have a smartphone. I can wrangle one of my friends into letting me use their phone for it if we can run the same app.

And here we go.. if you want advice that will stand up in court don't get on the berkeleying internet and expect it for free. I am not offering anyone a personal guarantee of anything and anyone who wants one can pay me at least a cool million dollars so i still profit by 500k after you berkeley up the thing i would have pulled off just fine. This is a serious offer. Some terms and conditions may apply. Offer subject to change based on how much damage your heavy-ass tow apparatus is capable of, like instantly killing that dude in the ranger that might have lived if it had been a Dynasty towing a dolley instead of a truck that looked just like yours. Oh well, as long as people are sitting at home bitching in this forum they are 100% less likely to be out killing someone with distracted towing. Unless you are bitching from your phone while towing in your massive homewrecker.

In reply to Vigo:

I have an old school gtech too! I can do the test from 50-0 at least initially and see what the old bugs got in her.

Interesting article on towing standards:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/that-dam-towing-test-new-sae-trailering-standards-explained-tech-dept

ProDarwin wrote: Interesting article on towing standards: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/that-dam-towing-test-new-sae-trailering-standards-explained-tech-dept

Everybody (I think except Toyota) keeps pushing adoption out because they dont want to show reduced capacity.

logdog wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: Interesting article on towing standards: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/that-dam-towing-test-new-sae-trailering-standards-explained-tech-dept

Everybody (I think except Toyota) keeps pushing adoption out because they dont want to show reduced capacity.

Yeah, Toyota adopted in 2010 IIRC.

The odd thing is that it doesn't seem to help one bit from a liability standpoint as each of the tests are basically a measurement of power, not suspension, handling dynamics, or stopping ability.

SVreX wrote: No one here has even attempted to ask the MOST basic questions, like how much towing experience does the OP have

Irrelevant, towing safe is towing safe.

SVreX wrote: how much the E30 weighs

It is an E30, pretty sure this board knows the approximate weight of it. 500lbs does not change what your tow vehicle should be IMO, that is splitting hairs.

SVreX wrote: or what the tongue weight is.

Also mostly irrelevant. For the most part, if a vehicle is rated to tow a certain amount of weight, a correctly loaded trailer will fall within the required tongue weight of said vehicle due to axle/hitch restrictions.

At the end of the day, you are correct though (a buddy and I were talking about this). Buy a 1992-1995 TBI extended cab 2wd gm truck (if you aren't in the rust belt you should be able to find a nice clean one for dirt cheap). They are great trucks, especially if you add a few modern necessities (aftermarket stereo and USB ports come to mind). Park it somewhere when not in use for $50/month. Buy mama bear a nice daily driver. Live the good life!

In reply to HiTempguy:

Those were not really irrelevant questions.

Experience at towing... in a discussion where the vast majority of posts are advocating (in one way or another) exceeding the rated tow rating, towing experience is extremely relevant. An experienced driver might understand the parameters, loading characteristics, etc to make an informed decision. A newbie can't.

E30 weight- Most of us know exactly what an E30 weighs. I closely named it before he posted it. But he didn't define whether the car was stock, or stripped to the max. It's a 3000lb + car if it is stock. In full race trim, might be as low as 2200lb. That is a very relevant difference when discussing a tow vehicle rated for 3500 lbs.

Tongue weight- Since we had already established the load was over the rating, AND that the trailer being considered was 20', the tongue weight is hugely relevant, particularly for a FWD vehicle. Mini vans are FWD. A 3000 lb vehicle sitting on the front of a 1800 lb 20' trailer being towed by a minivan would be tremendously dangerous.

Therefore, without additional info to the contrary, my input was that a minivan was not an appropriate tow vehicle.

But, we agree. Buy a beater truck.

SVreX wrote: E30 weight- Most of us know exactly what an E30 weighs. I closely named it before he posted it. But he didn't define whether the car was stock, or stripped to the max. It's a 3000lb + car if it is stock. In full race trim, might be as low as 2200lb. That is a very relevant difference when discussing a tow vehicle rated for 3500 lbs.

I'm insulted that you haven't read my build thread!

Mild update now is: 1. Minivan is still kind of in the picture, though wife is getting less interested in it for some reason. I would buy a cheap beater tow rig I guess. 2. 08 Sequoia is out. Drove it. Just too big, can't even see over the hood and I'm 6 feet tall. Otherwise very nice. 3. 07 Sequoia may be "in" if wife can get over her "I don't want to buy a car older than my current one" (08 4runner) thing. I know it's not a tow monster like the 08, but it would be sufficient for all of our needs, and drives smaller than the new Sequoia. And ones with under 75k can be had for less than we'll sell the 4runner for. 4. I drove the new Durango today. It's actually "on" the list as one with 20k miles can be had with the V8 for under $30k, it seats 7 nicely, drives well, and can tow 7k. Will go this route probably if I can't talk wife into something older. I'm trying to avoid getting a loan...

I'm really sorry!

I have had to avoid build threads for the most part. Too much crack cocaine means too little Paul.

SVreX wrote: I'm really sorry! I have had to avoid build threads for the most part. Too much crack cocaine means too little Paul.

here, I'll save you the trouble. My M42-swapped e30 is pretty light :)

Just to throw out another wildcard, I drove by a new Volvo tonight that looked like a tall wagon/minivan and thought of this thread, so I looked it up. XC90's are rated at ~ 4k and the various other v/xc60/70's are 3.3k. Neither great numbers for towing, but if you're looking for options...

A coworker was discussing how she wants a minivan w/ #2 on the way. Other coworker told us that minivans visually add ten pounds to their drivers. I lol'd. YMMV, use at own risk :p