Help Me Not Be Slow? - Driver Development Thread

I have a couple build threads on the Builds and Project Cars section and found myself talking about how things were progressing as a driver in different places and writing novels in-between the build portions.

Rather than clog up the build threads talking about driving and what I'm working on, I figured I'd split it off and have one thread over here to really dig into where I am as a driver and (hopefully!) ask for critiques and advice from the GRM community.

A bit of background on myself:

I am an Engineer by trade, professional stage Rally co-driver (@RallySideways, let me know if you ever need a navi!), have done a couple rallycrosses, work intermittently as a driving instructor at Rally Ready (rallyready.com), and prior to this year only a couple of autocross events as a driver. This year I did 6 or 7 autocrosses in various cars of my own or codriving other folk's cars and a couple of HPDE events.

I've seen a good progression during autocrosses this year, and was happy during my first instructed DE to be moved from Novice to Intermediate halfway through the day by my instructor. I do try to pay attention and listen though, and that seems to be the bar by which they promote from one group to the next.

Here's a video from late 2016, my first time on track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xlf-gOchlc&t

My XR had stock brakes and stock suspension at the time, which was... not confidence inspiring but was fun nonetheless. Some of the comments below the video were helpful as well as others who reached out to me independently. I post this with the intent to be a "this is where we started" reference. 

Feedback tended to be, decent lines, vision, but needed to keep hands in one place on the wheel instead of shuffle-steering so much. Brake later and not as much, carry more speed.

There are a few books that really helped. Heck, even the gran turismo games have racing line instruction. Next is to find a seasoned driver to ride along. 
 

what level of motorsports are you looking to get good at?

Go back to HPDEs, and put yourself back in the beginner group.  You are guaranteed and instructor that way and that is what you need now.  You may be safe enough for higher groups but will never get as much attention as the beginner groups.  Several friends of mine do this and put themselves in HPDE1 or 2 when they all totally qualify for 3 or 4, just to get some right seat instruction.  

Also, "the racing line" with randy pobst is nice for beginner level stuff. But it does sound like you are a little more advanced than that

In reply to _ :

I've read the Keith Code Motorcycling books, one of Ross Bentley's more recent books (not a Speed Secrets book, but I should get at least one of those), and various things picked up along the way being semi-involved in pro-am motorsports. I listen to Ross' Speed Secrets Podcast as well as Cone Coach, e alt.

I'm not sure particularly which I'd like to get better at, can I say all? Most likely that will be Autocross, though my intent is to compete in TT (probably SCCA) eventually. Rallycross events are not close, and for some reason I've never aspired to be a rally driver, despite sitting next to many of them through the years. I don't intend to try and become a "Pro" driver or anything like that, but I think eventually I'd like to do some W2W (probably Spec Miata/SRF, something with a lot of entries) at a club level. 

My hope with this thread is to make a "Continuous Learning" place with event recaps and driving impressions, posting videos and data and getting feedback on what others see, in the hopes that others as well as myself can learn something from it. I'll try to post a bit of a recap on this season and things which I saw in my development along the way.

Sonic said:

Go back to HPDEs, and put yourself back in the beginner group.  You are guaranteed and instructor that way and that is what you need now.  You may be safe enough for higher groups but will never get as much attention as the beginner groups.  Several friends of mine do this and put themselves in HPDE1 or 2 when they all totally qualify for 3 or 4, just to get some right seat instruction.  

This would depend on the organization, I FULLY intend to have an instructor for the forseeable future, Intermediate or "Blue group" most places is mixed instruction/solo, and I am not signed off as solo yet. Nor do I think that I should be, or want to be.

I will say, in terms of vehicle choice, that it's good that you picked up a Miata.  An XR4Ti can be made to go quickly but the overall feel of the things (coming from a history of MR2s, RX7s, and other smaller stuff) is really detrimental to driving fast, as they're not confidence inspiring in the steering/brake feel departments.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

I will say, in terms of vehicle choice, that it's good you picked up a Miata.  An XR4Ti can be made to go quickly but the overall feel of the things (coming from a history of MR2s, RX7s, and other smaller stuff) is really detrimental to driving fast, as they're not confidence inspiring in the steering/brake feel departments.

Truth. Right now the Miata has no roll bar so It's the XR or the Golf for track events, and the Golf has ALL the POWAH, and ALL the nannies... It was NOT happy with me last month as MSR Cresson with Apex. The XR steering I find I actually like! Though, mine has solid rack bushings, a poly rag joint, a bearing in the firewall, and an aftermarket steering wheel. Brakes are now '16 Focus all around and felt great at the 1 autocross I got to, but haven't got it on track since. The feel still wasn't great but it at least can STOP well. What really got me was the body roll and feeling so high up that it felt "tippy." It's got koni coilovers up front now and stiffer springs (350f/700r), so that may be mitigated. Have to get it running better before I go back out though. 

I had been holding off on getting a roll bar for the Miata because of trying to keep the weight down for E-Street, and already at a "disadvantage" because it's a later model with the 6spd, leather, power windows, power locks, and AC, etc vs a '99 but I try to squish the engineer in me and just drive the thing, and leave the tinkering for the XR. I have been looking more into getting the rollbar sooner rather than later so I can track the Miata too and not keep roasting my good DD tires. The guy who regularly wins ES here has a 6spd and a rollbar, so I have no excuses.

In terms of tracking my quickness relative to others, autocross has this handy thing called PAX where they normalize all the times of different classes based on SCCA wizardy and many many years of data. It's not a perfect system but it gives a relative sense of how you did compared to other cars. Here's my year in autocross and PAX finishes for reference

SCCA, 3/24/19, Lone Star Park. I started the year off in March where my neighbor let me Co-drive his 2014 Camaro SS. New car to me, much heavier and a lot more power than I was used to. Horrible seating position for me (loose 5 point belts, steering wheel too far away) and a fairly bad PAX finish of 125/164 cars ("Top" 76%) (results: https://texasscca.org/2019_solo_results/tr19_2_pax.htm). Had a huge smokey spin on one run, and braked too late with a lot of understeer always. Video of fastest Run: https://youtu.be/ZBXbUh0IJsE

NTAXS, 4/14/19, TMS Bus Lot. Merkur's 2nd autocross, now with Konis and new springs and Focus brakes. I remember the car feeling a lot better but still having a lot of understeer (probably the nut behind the wheel but also a wonky camber split front/rear with 1deg front, 2.5 deg rear because of shorter springs and camber gain in semi-trailing arms). No PAX calcs for NTAXS but finished 10/16 in the displacement based "class 2", not a good result (results: http://www.ntaxs.com/uploads/2/5/5/1/25513290/2019_2_apri_14_fin.pdf).

NTAXS, 5/18/19, TMS Bus Lot. Golf R (my DD), rain that day and a huge storm that rolled through and they cancelled the afternoon runs, but I had already left because of something funky going on with my suspension. Too much car for me, so fast that I forget to brake. Terminal understeer (FWD-based AWD and a heavy foot) and All-Season rubber. Again no PAX, but finished 11/16 in "Class 3" (results: http://www.ntaxs.com/uploads/2/5/5/1/25513290/2019_2_apri_14_fin.pdf)

Equipe Rapide,  8/4/19, Lone Star Park. Driving my Friend's '99 Miata, all stock except for Konig wheels and RE-71R Tires. My first time driving a Miata and it felt GREAT! Good balance in the car and just had the feeling! Most consisent finish I've ever had, all 5 runs within 0.2 of a second (last 4 were all a 55.0XX), even with the RE-71Rs getting greasy and sliding around everywhere on my last run. ER uses SCCA classing and does PAX calcs. 1st in ES (though none of the fast guys were there) and 34/107 in PAX (Top 32%) Results: http://www.ntaxs.com/uploads/2/5/5/1/25513290/2019_2_apri_14_fin.pdf

SCCA, 8/18/19, Lone Star Park. I liked my friend's miata so much I bought my own! 4 days after purchase, at an autocross, on the dry rotted and cracked all seasons which were on it. Car slid around a lot, and I outbraked myself into a few corners. Felt kinda meh about my driving.  5th/5 in ES , 89/124 in PAX (~72nd percentile) Results: https://texasscca.org/2019_solo_results/tr19_6_pax.htm

BMWCCA, 8/24/19, Lone Star Park. Co-Driving a friend's (hereafter, "Friend #2") '99 Miata on RE-71Rs, otherwise stock. Generally good, fuzzy on the details for this event but friend #2 was faster and I wasn't feeling it.  39th/60 on RAW time. Results: https://lscbmwcca.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/2019-08-autox.pdf

BMWCCA, 10/20/19, Lone Star Park. Attempted to shove some 225s under the fenders of my miata on 16in stock wheels, epic fail. New front sway bar. Cut the rear-right tire almost to the cords in 2 runs, swapped to 205/45r16 on different wheels and ran the rest of the day. Friend #2 was co-driving the car with me, and he's always been faster. Today was no exception. Didn't drive horrible, but wasn't lighting the world on fire. RE-71Rs are magic. BMW doesn't do PAX but since most people also run in SCCA with their cars, my friend made up a PAX calculation for everyone that had a published result with SCCA, 10th/10 in Class "X" (which also includes STR cars and BRZ's, we were the only street class Miata there), 19th/33 (only 33 cars had SCCA results) in PAX. Results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CVPrTiJQuenqRHhHsDAerPOxManEn2bsQXXDxR-vICw/edit?usp=sharing

SCCA, 11/10/19, Lone Star Park. My Miata, huge ES field (12 cars) and last SCCA event for the year. Managed to run into the leading ES driver and walk the course with him, which helped. Dropped time every run. Surface was gravely and was a big sweeper-heavy course, which rewarded a flat right foot and confidence in the grip. Balance of the car felt good, and my goal was to not out-brake myself into the tight corners and I succeeded! No fighting of the understeer, and was braking a bit earlier but not as hard and carrying more speed. Results showed it, 5th/12 in ES and a 37/149 PAX finish (Top 25%!!) Results: https://texasscca.org/2019_solo_results/tr19_9_pax.htm

Edit notes: 11/13/19, Video link to best run in Camaro added

I love that you liked the friend's Miata so much that you bought yourself one between two events that were FOUR DAYS apart. 

My biggest nag/advice/recommendation as someone who instructs at track days is learn the fine art of trail braking. If you learn to do one thing well this should be it. I feel so strongly about it that unlike many instructors I teach newbies this from the start (none of that do all of your braking in a straight line because they just ending up having to unlearn it later)

I'm a big advocate of learning to steer the car with the pedals (read trail brake throttle steer)

Autocross is a bit of an anomaly with some techniques dependent on course design; there are places where smoothly trailing the brakes into the apex upsets the car less but is actually slower than hard braking and flooring it. This mostly happens in/applies to very tight corners. There are other things likes slalom that are essentially a controlled tank slapper, which obviously you would not intentionally do on a road course. 

Check out driver61 on youtube. Not sure if watching videos will help, but I doubt it could hurt. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtbLA0YM6EpwUQhFUyPQU9Q

Also, do you do any sim racing?

If you can afford to, go to one of the big drivers schools, where you are immersed in driving for 3-4 straight days.  Once I did that, it was easier to see how to improve based on emulating other drivers.

OHSCrifle said:

I love that you liked the friend's Miata so much that you bought yourself one between two events that were FOUR DAYS apart. 

Ha, not quite the four days apart one, August 8th, to the 18th, so TEN days. TEN whole excruciating days haha.

Tom1200 said:

My biggest nag/advice/recommendation as someone who instructs at track days is learn the fine art of trail braking. If you learn to do one thing well this should be it. I feel so strongly about it that unlike many instructors I teach newbies this from the start (none of that do all of your braking in a straight line because they just ending up having to unlearn it later)

I'm a big advocate of learning to steer the car with the pedals (read trail brake throttle steer)

Autocross is a bit of an anomaly with some techniques dependent on course design; there are places where smoothly trailing the brakes into the apex upsets the car less but is actually slower than hard braking and flooring it. This mostly happens in/applies to very tight corners. There are other things likes slalom that are essentially a controlled tank slapper, which obviously you would not intentionally do on a road course. 

I'm definitely trying to learn trail braking, I've been doing a bit of that anyway from the rally school things (though with the right foot instead of the left), and I know that brake release is one of my weakest skills.

T.J. said:

Check out driver61 on youtube. Not sure if watching videos will help, but I doubt it could hurt. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtbLA0YM6EpwUQhFUyPQU9Q

Also, do you do any sim racing?

I think I recently watched one of his videos and it was really good! Can always help. No, currently no sim racing, though on top of everything else I do normally, I'm not sure where I'd find the time. I know its good practice though.

Edit: Combined posts and deleted duplicates

If I have a student who is showing an aptitude for handling the car (operating smoothly, not panicking mid-corner, generally okay-ish car placement for a novice, etc.), by the end of the day I stop focusing on the the line or specific critiques of too much brake, not enough, etc. and focus on where to look.  I call it out as we transition through the course.   I've found this to be most effective for a novice after they've done a few sessions, then ridden with me after lunch.  It seems like it's really cemented the concepts and helped them understand that their body & car follow their eyes.

It's the same thing that Evolution Autocross School will teach you, and it's the same thing I've seen in other performance driving books, comparisons of us lowly mortals to F1 drivers, etc.

So, for example, at the last track day I instructed at Thunderbolt of NJMP.  The final sequence onto the straight is a big constant radius carousel left, a small right-left (throw away) S and a very large sweeping right onto the straight.  I was calling out as we entered the carousel, "Cone at the end, far left," as we were half way around the carousel, "start of curb small left", as we're passing the first right in the throw-away S, "Last corner, start of left curbing."  As we're on the small left and positioned correctly for the fast right onto the straight, "yellow barrels" (at the wall for the pits) and then almost immediately "end of curbing" for the straight run off. 

The guy dropped probably 10 seconds that session alone, carried a lot more speed and was much more consistent with car placement.

See if you can get an instructor to show you where they're looking.  And even better is to have someone who can help you start focusing two corners ahead, but that takes a decent bit of seat time.

TXratti I was involved with rally for about a 10 year period so I know where you're coming from. It's a great base for pure car control. 

As for pedal release I'll try to relate it to an off road technique you may know; when you get a non limited slip equipped car/truck with an automatic trans stuck you can apply the brake, then give the car the bit of gas and slowly ease off the brake pedal. If you know the technique you'll know that the slightest pedal pressure allows one wheel to slowly turn. If you know the technique you'll know the amount of pedal pressure. It's very similar to the amount needed for trail braking. 

If the above technique is unfamiliar to you then try this; in traffic try bringing your car to a stop with out feeling the final stop (like if you coasted to a halt), this forces you to slowly release the brake pedal. You should feel neither the stop nor the front end of the car rising back up.

You are probably familiar with release the brake pedal at the same rate as you turn the steering wheel. The trick to releasing the pedal is to hold the slightest of pedal pressure a bit once you've wound on the full amount of steering needed.  Now on the subject of steering lock once you master trail braking you'll find you will wind on less steering than you were previously. That's one of the benefits is getting the car to rotate, you wind on less steering, less steering means less resistance to forward momentum and so you end up with higher corner entry speeds, mid corner speed as well higher exit speed. This is why I nag about learning trail braking. 

While you nail down the trail braking, work on throttle steering through double apex corners; you should be able to negotiate them without any steering corrections.

And finally (I couldn't resist) stop shuffle steering, you're not herding a Crown Vic down a gravel road.........

Tom1200 said:

If the above technique is unfamiliar to you then try this; in traffic try bringing your car to a stop with out feeling the final stop (like if you coasted to a halt), this forces you to slowly release the brake pedal. You should feel neither the stop nor the front end of the car rising back up.

Yes!! This is how I was taught to come to a stop on the street when I learned to drive! Get most of your braking done early, highest pedal pressure just after initial application (don't slam your passengers into their seatbelts), and reduce the pedal pressure as the speed bleeds off, needing less and less to slow the car down, and less risk of plowing into the back of someone because your speed will be lower as you come up to the other cars at the light.

 

You are probably familiar with release the brake pedal at the same rate as you turn the steering wheel. The trick to releasing the pedal is to hold the slightest of pedal pressure a bit once you've wound on the full amount of steering needed.  Now on the subject of steering lock once you master trail braking you'll find you will wind on less steering than you were previously. That's one of the benefits is getting the car to rotate, you wind on less steering, less steering means less resistance to forward momentum and so you end up with higher corner entry speeds, mid corner speed as well higher exit speed. This is why I nag about learning trail braking. 

YES. I know this in theory but need more practical application.

While you nail down the trail braking, work on throttle steering through double apex corners; you should be able to negotiate them without any steering corrections.

And finally (I couldn't resist) stop shuffle steering, you're not herding a Crown Vic down a gravel road.........

Hah yeah. I got a lot of feedback from that and I have stopped! If you noticed, Icalled myself out on it too when I posted the link 

See my responses in bold above. Thank you for sharing your insights!

WonkoTheSane said:

If I have a student who is showing an aptitude for handling the car (operating smoothly, not panicking mid-corner, generally okay-ish car placement for a novice, etc.), by the end of the day I stop focusing on the the line or specific critiques of too much brake, not enough, etc. and focus on where to look.  I call it out as we transition through the course.   I've found this to be most effective for a novice after they've done a few sessions, then ridden with me after lunch.  It seems like it's really cemented the concepts and helped them understand that their body & car follow their eyes.

It's the same thing that Evolution Autocross School will teach you, and it's the same thing I've seen in other performance driving books, comparisons of us lowly mortals to F1 drivers, etc.

So, for example, at the last track day I instructed at Thunderbolt of NJMP.  The final sequence onto the straight is a big constant radius carousel left, a small right-left (throw away) S and a very large sweeping right onto the straight.  I was calling out as we entered the carousel, "Cone at the end, far left," as we were half way around the carousel, "start of curb small left", as we're passing the first right in the throw-away S, "Last corner, start of left curbing."  As we're on the small left and positioned correctly for the fast right onto the straight, "yellow barrels" (at the wall for the pits) and then almost immediately "end of curbing" for the straight run off. 

The guy dropped probably 10 seconds that session alone, carried a lot more speed and was much more consistent with car placement.

See if you can get an instructor to show you where they're looking.  And even better is to have someone who can help you start focusing two corners ahead, but that takes a decent bit of seat time.

I'll try to remember this next time I make it out to the track! Looking ahead is key in every motorsport I think... even autocross.

Thank you for sharing! This is good information as well, I will provide a more intelligent response tomorrow when my brain is awake (likely an edit to this post).

One of the great benefits of an instructor/co-driver is having someone to "truth" your driving. For the most part we suck at self analysis. If we knew what we were doing wrong ourselves we wouldn't do it wrong. You seem to be aware of this both through your talking and the fact that you post videos for others to critique. There are a couple of ways to leverage this self awareness. 

Ride along. A lot. Feel what the driver is doing and how those inputs translate to motion. Ride with different people. Ride with different people in the same car. Ride with other people driving your car. 

At some point, look into a data system. There is a difference between "knowing" when you brake, and seeing it on a data trace. Get someone faster than you to drive your car with the data running and see what they're doing differently. 

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

Thank you! I do truly want to improve and want to hear the hard critiques. A faster codriver (Friend #2, above) did wonders for me starting out. 

At the track day I completed last month, unfortunately my instructors car had a mechanical in his first session and Inwasnt able to ride along, but I hope to do more events.

Especially for autocross, I always try to have a codriver if I can, preferably someone faster than me. Or trying to introduce someone to the sport.

Sitting right seat in rally cars has been valuable as well, you do gain something from it through osmosis. 

Continuing to get this thread up to speed, what follows is a history of my on track experience.

Initial track day in my XR4Ti at Track Night in America at Motorsport Ranch Cresson (hereafter, MSRC), with no instructor (see video from original post). Timid on the brakes (drums in the rear), and egregious shuffle steer, but some Federal 595 RS-RR tires so I at least wasn't sliding all around. Car was overheating a bit (240 deg coolant temp), a dumb on my part running a more powerful ECU (which ran some fairly agressive timing), at 14psi with no intercooler (stock was no intercooler and 18psi). Not a good combo and I was worried about the car during the event.

Many months later (more than a year?) I took my daily, a 2016 Golf R, to Track Night in America at MSRC and had a fairly good time, not pushing the car too much. The brakes are good and the car is probably too fast for me in stock form, but I left all the nannies on and only ran up against the traction control in the last session when the tires (All Seasons) seemed to be overheating. Feeling the line out, but still wasn't particularly aware of where I needed to place the car, etc.

I'm really trying NOT to take the DD out to autocrosses and track days and keep it stock and reliable, but with no roll bar on the Miata, and the Merkur having electrical issues, it's the only car suitable currently.

Last on-track event was a great day with Apex Driving Academy at MSRC, in the Golf, working with an instructor all day. Per the data I was running (10Hz GPS antenna with Racechrono) I wasn't outright faster than my sessions with TNiA, but the predictive showed faster times and I was MUCH more consistent. Part of that was overheating the brakes a bit and having a slightly soft pedal the rest of the day, so a lot of time lost in braking early. As stated before, I was moved into the intermediate group halfway through the day, but not "soloed" (nor am I ready for that). Skipped the last session to keep the car happy but was a good day besides that.

Things noticed by the instructor:

-Generally, I listen and followed the line well, smooth inputs

-On some of the higher-speed corners, I tend to "cheat" the turn in and shortcut the corner a bit, need to wait wait wait to turn in  (esp. Big Bend at MSRC)

-Braking, I need to work on trailing it in a bit, and get off the brakes earlier (and more smooth)

I need to pull the video from the Apex day but I will definitely post that up here once I process it.

Part of the reduction in lap times over what they would be  is that you're having to think, do and analyze at the same time.  As you become more proficient you'll need to think less and be able to analyze more. /drivers who put in the work on the front end my be slower initially but in the long wrong get much faster.

One of the reasons I instruct is it causes me to analyze my own driving as well as my competitors. Also it makes me recognize things I tell students not to do. I usually have one "don't you tell students not to do that moments" every year, nothing big but it's the little things that make you fast or not fast.

I've been racing for 32 years and instructing for 20 and I still try to learn new things every time I'm out. That's part of the fun and keeps it fresh.

Tom1200 said:

Part of the reduction in lap times over what they would be  is that you're having to think, do and analyze at the same time.  As you become more proficient you'll need to think less and be able to analyze more. /drivers who put in the work on the front end my be slower initially but in the long wrong get much faster.

In the Keith Code motorcycle racing books (I used to ride), he describes it as a dollar bill, and things which require attention are "spending" money, and if you spend more than you have then you're likely to crash because you've overloaded yourself. With experience the amount you spend to do certain things decreases and allows you to focus on other, more advanced things and go faster.

In reply to TXratti :

You also have a powerful tool with access to Rally Ready. Ride with Dave in the terrifying side by side thing and have him tell you where he's looking. Shredder can throw a bunch of drift info your way and Maskrey is awefully fast in an autocross car. If you get a chance, talk Brainne into a day at Harris Hill, well worth the cost. And that's not even talking about the drivers in the DFW area which is a whole other talent pool.