In a positive development, myself and Mrs. Shinnygroove are making a move on a house in Montana. This has been a long-range plan of ours and will hopefully be a retirement destination someday, but for the immediate future it will be a 2nd home where we will spend parts of the year. We need to get one do-everything car to keep out there. Requirements:
- $50k budget for a new vehicle from a dealership around Bozeman. As far as I can tell that narrows it to Chevy, Ford, Dodge/Chrysler, Toyota and Honda.
- three row SUV that will routinely carry 2-4 people, but needs to be able to accommodate up to 7 with some luggage in a pinch when we have visitors.
- Easy enough to park and deal with in town. I really don't want a full-size Tahoe, Suburban or Expedition, and they are probably out of the budget anyway.
- Off-road and winter weather capable. I'm not planning on rock crawling, but I do want to be able to get back into public lands in the summer and up to the ski resorts in the winter.
Right now I have my eye on the Honda Pilot Trailsport and the Chevy Traverse Z71. I'm leaning towards the Chevy because it has more room for luggage behind the third row, the turbo powertrain should be better at altitude, and the approach/departure angle looks better for offroad activities. The counterargument is that the Z71 is a first model year that may have some bugs that need to be worked out. I've had great ownership experiences with Hondas, but I've also done pretty well with the two GM vehicles that I've owned. I feel like the Highlander isn't quite big enough, and the new Grand Highlanders are thin on the ground and selling above my budget. Neither seems as offroad capable as the Trailsport or the Z71.
Any opinions on these vehicles? Is there something else I should also be considering?
Well I think you need to make a decision of where you'll be spending more time. On road or off road? Also, "off road" differs to a lot of people but as someone who owned a stock-ish LR3 4x4 and took it to an off road park here locally, I found that people overestimated the "equipment" that they needed to go off road. The majority of natural things you see off road aren't really that technical or can be driven around/avoided. The crossover/unibody vehicles usually have a good basic AWD system that will get you out of inclement weather and paired with decent tires (A/Ts) and the slightly raised ground clearance, let you go almost anywhere you need. If you really need to traverse on rocks and things like that your only choice is a 4x4 with 4WD. I think the Grand Highlander is a great compromise crossover for just about anything (I sat in the car and the third row is actually useable by humans). It's got about 8 inches of ground clearance and a good basic AWD system (I don't recall if it has torque vectoring). You can "lift" it by just getting some slightly bigger tires and it may be enough for your needs. I believe the Tahoe/Expedition/etc. are hugely out of budget. The Sequoia is barely in the budget there and if you look up Doug Demuro's reasoning for why he got one, hes in a very small niche that apparently needed a big 3 row SUV that can off road.
In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
Yeah, it will definitely spend more time on road than off. I agree with your assessment that most people over-equip for off roading; I've taken stock RWD pickups, minivans and sedans into some places where most people think you need a Jeep with a lift and 37's. I'm more likely to encounter heavy snow than anything. my wife will also be driving this thing so on-road manners and ease of parking it in town are a must.
Good tires are at least half the battle. The Pilot Trailsport and the Traverse Z71 come from the dealer lot with good AT tires, skid plates, recovery points, AWD drive modes appropriate for true offroad conditions, and 8" or more of ground clearance.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
Yeah, it will definitely spend more time on road than off. I agree with your assessment that most people over-equip for off roading; I've taken stock RWD pickups, minivans and sedans into some places where most people think you need a Jeep with a lift and 37's. I'm more likely to encounter heavy snow than anything. my wife will also be driving this thing so on-road manners and ease of parking it in town are a must.
Good tires are at least half the battle. The Pilot Trailsport and the Traverse Z71 come from the dealer lot with good AT tires, skid plates, recovery points, AWD drive modes appropriate for true offroad conditions, and 8" or more of ground clearance.
If you're mostly on road, encountering heavy snow and your wife needs good on-road manners, it sounds like you need a three row unibody crossover with a good mechanical AWD system (not those hybrid ones that don't really do much) and some A/T Tires with 3 peak rating (think Falkens, etc). Best of all, they will surely fit under your budget. The body on frame stuff is EXPENSIVE. My wife currently drives a RAV4 which is a smaller version of the Highlander/Grand Highlander and we pretty much have gone anywhere that isn't an offroad park or a place with a ton of rocks. Driving Sports TV on YouTube does great tests of crossovers and their various AWD systems so you may want to take a look at that.
My parents just picked up an explorer sport with the 3rd row and v6 ecoboost... I have to admit, it's a very compelling package for not a ton of money. It's way quicker than any luxoBox deserves to be. I don't know if it fits under your $50k threshold, but it's gotta be really darn close.
Based upon your criteria and picking something that will last, and avoid being in the dealership.
I would look at finding the nicest 4 Runner limited you can in your budget. Skip the TRD Pro, the Limited will do well with what you're asking for.
The Limited trims have the full time 4WD system with the locking center diff and they came with a fold up 3rd row. same system as the GX470/460.
the rear space behind the 3rd row is definitely smaller than the pilot or the Tahoe.. but it's also almost a foot shorter than those SUVs.
The new land cruiser could have also been a possibility, but it's over your budget, the turbo motor would possibly been nice to have at altitude.
Look at the Grand Cherokee L with the limited trim. I had a V8 rental and that thing was serious business.
Nissan Pathfinder Rock Creek in Bozeman - No direct experience outside of my brother has the prior edition Pathfinder RC that he takes up to his mountain house in NC and has never had an issue, and not sure how much space is behind the third row but just throwing out if you are shopping around.
Mndsm
MegaDork
7/3/24 12:48 p.m.
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) said:
Based upon your criteria and picking something that will last, and avoid being in the dealership.
I would look at finding the nicest 4 Runner limited you can in your budget. Skip the TRD Pro, the Limited will do well with what you're asking for.
The Limited trims have the full time 4WD system with the locking center diff and they came with a fold up 3rd row. same system as the GX470/460.
the rear space behind the 3rd row is definitely smaller than the pilot or the Tahoe.. but it's also almost a foot shorter than those SUVs.
The new land cruiser could have also been a possibility, but it's over your budget, the turbo motor would possibly been nice to have at altitude.
This. Find the nicest Toyota you can.
In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :
As it would happen, I have a 4Runner as a rental car right now. The third row is about as useful as the rear seat in a 911, and there's maybe a foot of space behind that seat for cargo. It also drives like a 20 year old pickup. I think I'm probably better off with one of the bigger unibody SUV's.
Grand Cherokee L looks like a winner. I'll investigate the Explorer and Pathfinder as well.
Opti said:
The new CX9?
I am 100% Mazda fanboy, but the closest dealer is two hours away in Billings.
I have been driving a 2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee or the past two and a half years and it is really grown on me. I'm probably going to replace it with the same thing.
In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
I think you'll really like the Cherokee L. I can't speak for the v6 but the v8 was surprisingly good. I think the limited trim comes right in at your budget with 3rd row option and 4x4. I'd take it over my Expedition Platinum for sure.
I would consider a gently used Suburban or Tahoe. Body on frame, V8, post covid pricing has come back to reality, space for days. They surprisingly get nearly as good of fuel economy as smaller suvs but offer more room and capability.
Similarly the Exoedition is a good buy and even roomier. That ecoboost is properly fun to drive too.
AWD Toyota Sienna minivan...will do just fine for snow, gravel, dirt or anything else that doesn't require greater approach/departure angles.
The only thing a SUV can do better than a modern AWD minivan for 95%+ of uses is towing.
We love our Traverse so far, but ours is a '21 so it got the NA V6. No opinion on the newer turbo engines. But, part of the reason we got ours was I spent two weeks in Pueblo with a rental AWD traverse. It had 40,000 miles on it and drove great. It would also handily do 125 through the high dessert, and felt super solid at that speed. Seats were great.
The one we got is FWD only, which is fine for where we live. I compared the AWD rental one I had to a Subaru Outback with better fuel economy and a bigger cargo area.
We have several friends and family with Traverses & Acadia, and to a person they've loved them and put tons of miles on them. It's nice that there's a Chevrolet Dealer for your Chevrolet car just about everywhere you care to see in the U.S.A., too.
A used explorer st can be had for your price point. The second row captain seats will limit you to 6 tho. It was offered with a bench but that limits 3rd row ingress and egress.
If you listen to the whiners in the fb groups, you should never buy one. I will agree that the sync system, with the tech group or large obnoxious screen in the center of the dash, is horribly unreliable. The transmission fluid level is underfilled from the factory by a quart or more. The downpipes break regularly, but plenty of aftermarket solutions plus the excuse to upgrade the rest of the exhaust. The OE tire size for the street performance brakes is horrible. You can either resize to a 295/40 or just put on the other OE sized wheels or just upgrade or degrade to 22's or 18/20's respectively.
When we bought the ST, we had crossshopped the traverse and trailblazer. The traverse seats great for the front but all the other seats suck imo. Then it's fwd only and just another amorphous jelly bean blob on the road. Trailblazer was just the same only smaller and a Hyundai krapbox rebadge.
I'd go with the Pilot or the Highlander. I love the Grand Cherokees but I wouldn't trust it must past the warranty. Our old Odyssey had 260k when we sold it and the engine and trans were perfect. My wife's Pilot has 170k on it and you'd never know from driving it.
Also tires, but you seem to understand that.
Ranger50 said:
A used explorer st can be had for your price point. The second row captain seats will limit you to 6 tho. It was offered with a bench but that limits 3rd row ingress and egress.
If you listen to the whiners in the fb groups, you should never buy one. I will agree that the sync system, with the tech group or large obnoxious screen in the center of the dash, is horribly unreliable. The transmission fluid level is underfilled from the factory by a quart or more. The downpipes break regularly, but plenty of aftermarket solutions plus the excuse to upgrade the rest of the exhaust. The OE tire size for the street performance brakes is horrible. You can either resize to a 295/40 or just put on the other OE sized wheels or just upgrade or degrade to 22's or 18/20's respectively.
We've had zero problems with our ST so far, including any of the stuff you listed. The Sync system works fine, though the implementation is less than great, with that giant, vertical tacked-on screen. What's worse than the screen itself is that if you use Android Auto, the map only appears on the top third of it, which is smaller than it was on the smaller screen in my Fusion. Tons of wasted space.
As a matter of fact, the only problem we've had so far is the center cupholder has broken twice from my wife closing the lid on her water bottle too hard. The first time we got it replaced under warranty, the second time I decided to DIY it, so I took the whole center console out (not that bad of a job) and glued it. It's a truly awful design, about 10x more complicated than it should be. I mean, it's a berkeleying cupholder! Anyhow, hopefully it should hold up better now. We'll see.
flyin_viata said:
AWD Toyota Sienna minivan...will do just fine for snow, gravel, dirt or anything else that doesn't require greater approach/departure angles.
The only thing a SUV can do better than a modern AWD minivan for 95%+ of uses is towing.
I'm also an avowed minivan lover, but not in this case. I want something that has some ground clearance and can take all-terrain tires.
In reply to Ranger50 :
It might just be a mood I'm in, but I think I'm done with Ford for a while. My F-250 and F-150 before that worked fine, but stupid small stuff broke somewhat often. Last month I spent four hours dealing with a broken door lock actuator in a 4 year old truck that isn't a daily driver. This will be the main car in a 2nd house, I just want the thing to work when I need it.
In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
We are at 653xx right now with only oil changes, one trans spill and fill, and still the E36 M3ty OE pirelli tires in the horrible 275/45-21 size on it. It had one warranty claim for a splash shield that came loose and wore a hole in itself from the tire.
I mean what's not to love of going 12.50's in a 5k pound suv for only an additional 1700 dollhairs..... plus it handles way better than any suv should. I mean you could get a x5, but then you lose the third row.
In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
My reaction for a car that will be far away and need to be ready to run at all times... I would want a vehicle/model that has seen the least changes in it's current variation. A model where the manufacturer got the recipe right. Not one where the manufacturer is trying out something new. That become tough in the current crop of new stuff.
Ford runs you into EcoBoost and they have been less than ideal for some owners and you've had your own experiences.
Jeep Cherokee is a pretty recent introduction.
Toyota is onto new V6 turbos with some teething issues.
With all that said, my gut is the "hasn't been changed in forever, even if it does drive like a truck" outgoing 4Runner. Yes, the 3rd row is small so with that said, the answer from me is the outgoing Toyota Sequoia. Seek out a CPO'ed one and you'll get most the benefits of having a new one without the teething issues of the new one.
EDIT: Zoiks! You can buy two recent used 4Runners for the price of one Sequoia! That then leads me to another wonder...for me a route to "reliability" is to have two cars when you need one. Keep up on them and one will always be ready to go. Maybe one "do it all" is not the answer. I also imagine in "the land of open spaces" its not uncommon to drive some very long stretches. Might one vehicle of high-mpg and one vehicle of high-capability be the answer?
Or, mpg and capability...I'm pretty impressed with the 2.7L full size trucks. With Ford out for you that leaves GM. Silverado 4 door with a covered or lockable bed? Is seating for 5 enough? Sadly, this engine combo has not made its way down to the Tahoe/Suburban.
In reply to John Welsh :
Apparently the GM 2.7 has timing chain issues like it seems for all GM's that have one... that's a cab pull off affair and trans removal since it's on the back of the engine. Then there are issues with the 10 spds but they're different issues than what the same design ford has...
