Help me understand BAT

bmw88rider said:

For those who don't know, PRD design does a lot of great work. https://www.prddesign.com/  I've seen their shop since it's not that far away.  He put a lot of shots of the work in this car in his instagram. So after seeing it was that truck, $130K is not out of the realm. The labor hours in that truck would put it near that total. Some may say it was a bargain. 

 

When I read the description, it was a bunch of rebuilt parts.  How in the world do you get to $130k in labor for a simple rebuild for a very common vehicle that has a very robust parts availability?  I just don't see it.  

If they REALLY updated and upgraded it, with a lot of fabrication to go with it, sure.  But taking stuff off, cleaning it, replacing seals?  If that took THAT much labor, wow.  Maybe they need to find new sources of labor.

I want a list of the losing 2nd high bidder (loser)  on these BAT auctions ,  and also a lot of the Monterey auctions , 

These guys were ready to spend big money , maybe they want some of our stuff ......HaHaHa

Also the people Ive met that buy in these realms arent always as wealthy as youd think, some can comfortably afford it, but Ive been told regularly, at that point you arent buying a normal car, your buying an asset with an established value, many times an appreciating asset. So maybe they put a large chunk of their wealth into something like this, knowing that they get to enjoy it and unless everything comes crashing down, they are unlikely to lose a large chunk of money. Maybe it depreciates a little when tastes change and you lose 20K, would you pay 20K for that? Or maybe it goes up and you make 20K. With inflation running rampant, you can sit on cash losing value at a double digit rate or you can buy assets to enjoy or invest in. Sure you could buy a more traditional investment and make a better ROI, but if you think that chances of it going up are decent you get something cool while making money and worse case scenario you lose a little.

This is very common in the used exotic world. You arent paying 200K for a used ferrari. You drive a used Ferrari for a year or two and it costs you a couple grand or if you buy right it pays you 20 grand.

I saw the comments on BAT and even people there questioned the sanity of this sale.

Now as for how we got from someone has to much money to railing against wealthy people mystifies me far more than how a rusty looking truck went for 130K.

alfadriver said:

bmw88rider said:

For those who don't know, PRD design does a lot of great work. https://www.prddesign.com/  I've seen their shop since it's not that far away.  He put a lot of shots of the work in this car in his instagram. So after seeing it was that truck, $130K is not out of the realm. The labor hours in that truck would put it near that total. Some may say it was a bargain. 

 

When I read the description, it was a bunch of rebuilt parts.  How in the world do you get to $130k in labor for a simple rebuild for a very common vehicle that has a very robust parts availability?  I just don't see it.  

If they REALLY updated and upgraded it, with a lot of fabrication to go with it, sure.  But taking stuff off, cleaning it, replacing seals?  If that took THAT much labor, wow.  Maybe they need to find new sources of labor.

Looks like you got yourself a business plan right there 

In reply to Slippery :

If I can get a MT TV show out of it, it would be tempting.

In reply to alfadriver :

I don't remember all of the work done to it but the entire chassis was torn down, refurbished, converted to 4WD which was kinda rare on that model and the I remember some interior work done to it as well. It was a little more than a reseal and repaint of the chassis. 

I have no ties to this guy or the truck. Good for him if it's legit. I liked it a lot when I saw it. Not 130K a lot but whatever. If you can swing the hustle more power to him. 

In reply to bmw88rider :

Wheeler Dealer has done that a few times, and never managed to add up the labor to be anywhere near $130k.   Maybe it was not as simple as I see it, but I just can't see where it was so complex to add up to anywhere near that.  Even the interior looks like it came from Parts Depot or Rock Auto.

They could have spent less money putting that body onto a similar length modern chassis w/ updated modern 4x4 powertrain.

As for the buyer, if this is a good value, what other business choices have they made costing them hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Putting the car together the second time takes longer.

Stripping, sandblasting, repairing loose rivets, bad welds, etc all take time.

Then there's powdercoat, paint, rewiring, etc.

Some shops don't use illegals for cheap labour.

Mr. Peabody said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

You make some "interesting" assumptions.

I've seen your work in the past. You can do much better.

I have no idea what that means. I do know someone paid good money for a car they wanted. You felt the need to call them stupid, why? Is someone that buys an air cooled 911 for $200k someone with more money than brains in a Dick measuring contest, or are they a savvy investor?

When you shoot someone down for buying an expensive car, you sound like a jealous person that's can't afford it, that's not a good look on anyone. 

I love and can relate to things like ICON and Singer but I agree that this build isn't anything like that.

On the contrary though, I'm "friends" with a guy (early 30s) that is well known who is 100% self-made and has made a good fortune for himself and enjoys cars.. His nearing 40+ car collection is absolutely nuts (2600hp TT Viper ACR, LaFerrari, F40, CGT, etc.)  and he enjoys and drives most of them like most of us here would if we were in his position. My point is that he sees most cars as an experience and "small" amounts of money to him are much different than most other people. Some of those people don't blink an eye at $130k when they also might spend that on a couple of lavish vacations. 

In conclusion, congrats to the seller for getting what most think is an incredible selling price and congrats to the buyer for acquiring a truck he obviously wanted. 

YMMV 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1929-ford-roadster-25/

So yeah even I am not immune to bidding on BAt cars when they are cheap enough near the end. 

Just thinking aloud here but we're all under the assumption that this was a legitimate sale.  And it may very well be.  But what if I had several trucks like this?  Ones that could be taken to this condition with just a bit of effort.  Maybe I had a whole building full of them from a logging company auction or railroad or whatever.  Aside from BAT getting their pound of flesh...ain't no way around that, it would only take 2 (maybe 3) people in on the scam to run the price into the stratosphere and by doing such raise all boats with the tide.  The next one they'll let go for "only" $60k.

Opti said:

In reply to MrFancypants :

Yes life isnt fair for anyone, but becoming a successful neurosurgeon is definitely hard work even if its all paid for. Otherwise everyone would do it, nobody has any problem lending people money for school, people get loans for hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to school to get a useless degree. Something like 80% of med school graduates have school debt with the average being about 250K.

Sure, but it's significantly harder work for someone without all of those advantages. It's the difference between walking a tightrope with a big cushy pile of your parent's cash to land on if you fail and walking a tightrope with life ending, crushing debt to land on if you fail.

Anyone taking on six figure debt for a career that isn't guaranteed may as well be walking into a casino and putting it all on red.

In reply to MrFancypants :

Yah life is hard for most people, but for most of us just being born in the US makes us better off than 99 percent of people in the world, so lets have a little perspective. At the end of the day you can complain that its harder for you or someone or you can just deal with it and make the best of it for you. Your reference to debt for school being akin to a huge gamble, well most of the super wealthy people took a huge gamble on something and it worked out, its hard to get very wealthy without taking risks. You cant not take a risk and then complain about the people that did and how easy it was for them.

MrFancypants said:

Anyone taking on six figure debt for a career that isn't guaranteed may as well be walking into a casino and putting it all on red.

Which is why you shouldn't do it. Going to Stanford to get a teaching degree, if you borrow the money is unwise and you can get the same degree at city college for an 1/8th of the price.    

As for the rest I've been fortunate enough to work with two members of an extremely wealthy powerful local family; One stayed in the family business because they didn't want to give up the lifestyle they were accustomed to and I'm pretty sure they're fairly miserable.  The other wanted to be a musician, the father immediately cut them off, they earn a decent living and while they live well it's nothing like they would have if they'd towed the line. They are happy though.

Point being just because a road is paved for you doesn't mean it's going were you want. 

I love BAT.. I've been a fan of the site for years, and it's evolved into a source of knowledge and entertainment for me.. I've built 2 niche vehicles that sold on BAT, and I know of nowhere else that I could have gotten the same exposure to qualified buyers for such a special-interest item.  In my life, I've tried Craigslist, Ebay, and back in the day the paper version of Autotrader... hell, I've parked at the Pomona swap meet; all with lesser results and interest than BaT stirs up.  I particularly like the way-out-of-left-field stuff that the site often features..  I think the healthy prices usually come from an offering that is one-of-few, or is so 'special' (however that's defined) that there won't be another one that pops up next Tuesday- that's when all of those qualified, 'car guy' buyers can jump in and buy what they fancy.. I've bid on a few things there, but I've never won anything (which is likely to the benefit of my marriage) 

ccrunner

Congratulations on  the sale of the P1800. Went for way more than I expected

Thank you twentyover... The Volvo did much, much better than I ever thought it would.. Also bonus in that the new owner is truly a 'car guy' and plans to drive it and use it as intended.. A good outcome for sure..

ccrunner said:

Thank you twentyover... The Volvo did much, much better than I ever thought it would.. Also bonus in that the new owner is truly a 'car guy' and plans to drive it and use it as intended.. A good outcome for sure..

You mean the $110k Volvo P1800? Did you ask him where he got his money? Apparently he must be a trust fund kid with more money than brains because no "normal" person would spend $100k on one of those.....

ShawnG said:

Putting the car together the second time takes longer.

Stripping, sandblasting, repairing loose rivets, bad welds, etc all take time.

Then there's powdercoat, paint, rewiring, etc.

Some shops don't use illegals for cheap labour.

This isn't an hand built Ferrari, it's a Ford truck built on an assembly line that probably put out hundreds a day.  Which is to say, it's construction is very much about putting it together quickly.  

So while you are accurate, to think it's anywhere near $100k in labor costs, well....   I can't see it.  Especially when you see areas that they intentionally did not do- the really high buck part of exterior paint.

alfadriver said:

That could have been done by someone here for 1/10 of the sale price.  There is zero special skills that are in that vehicle.  None, nada, nothing, zero- that was just parts replacement.

If you can build it for $13k, I'm in. I'll buy it from you for $30k. Deal? I'll take 5 of them please. 

Im looking forward to the threads that will pop up after I win the Mega Millions.  "What dummy just paid 100k for a mint 1983 Pontiac Acadian?!?!"

Oh, my. I have mixed feelings on this, since I own a virtual clone of that truck.

Long bed standard cab 1970 F250 4wd with an FE and a 4 speed manual. I love the truck but now I wonder what it would fetch.

Wow what a weird thread that manages to cover a number of areas.

First, while the 100K in labor seems high, it easily passes the sniff test to me.  IF this was farmed out to one of the well known shops then I can easily see a labor rate of $120/hr or more.  Let's round that down to $100/hr.  $100,000/$100/hr is 1,000 hours.  Really that isn't out of line for stripping it down, cleaning, sand blasting, machining, painting, pressing in new parts, reassembling, trouble shooting etc.  If you allow 120/hr then it's 'only' 833 hours, even more believable.

As for the vehicle.  Like most here I don't get it for that price, I also just don't get it.  I do understand the attraction of an older vehicle showing the scars of a life well driven, real patina, with fully restored and or upgraded mechanicals.  But I don't understand this level of, well I wont call it patina, to me its just it's effing trashed and it ruins an otherwise interesting build, but to each their own.

On the people railing against the rich and wealthy.  I may be pretty hard core left/democratic.  And I've stated publicly here before that while I as an individual am carful to minimize (legally) what I pay in tax, I honestly believe as a citizen of the United States that someone in my position should be paying more into the country to take care of those less fortunate or able.  Having said that I'm getting really tired of people complaining and bitching about wealthy people.  I happen to know quite a few people with very high net worths (I'm not one of them), and despite the current popular opinion, most of those are self made and started from very modest means.  I know and have met a fair number who've inherited wealth, but the vast majority of those are spending it faster than it's increasing and they will be the last generation to enjoy it.  But guess what?, they aren't exploiting anyone except their own offspring, they are putting money into the economy at the expense of their own future.  There are a few who've inherited, or come from, old money who are not spending fast, and the one thing I can say about them is that you'd never know that they are particularly well off.  Personal experience breaks these people down 70% self made, 25% inherited and spending fast, 5% inherited/old money that will continue for generations.  

I know it's popular to blame wealthy people for the worlds problems and portray them as money grabbing exploiters of their fellow man (as in human, don't read in gender).  Sure there are a few of them, but they are the ones who get the press and are vilified.  Most wealthy business owners treat their workers with respect, and have helped many of them raise their standard of living significantly.  

Finally, being a millionaire isn't that big a deal these days.  8% of people and over 10% of households are millionaires in this country today.  YEs that's skewed towards older people, but on average it takes 28 years to become a millionaire, you shouldn't expect to reach the finish line before you start.  People need to stop equating millionaires with Bezos, the facepage droid, Bill Gates etc.  They aren't even the 1%, they're the 0.0001% and by the time you reach that stage the money is basically virtual not real.  If anyone of those people tried to spend even 1% of their own net worth tomorrow, they'd need to sell so much stock it would probably tank the whole market.  They don't have a Scrouge McDuck pile of gold in their basements. 

OK, OK, I'll calm down now.  Rant over.