Help with engine choice

In reply to shelbyz :

Duratec - Hadn't thought of it but a quick google shows it's competitive with many other v6s including the KLZE weight wise - .5 iters more for only 48 pounds sounds like qutie a good tradeoff. Do you happen to know how much it loves revs?

LQ1 - Too heavy

Northstar - I don't know much about it, could yo umaybe do a quick learn me? How much does it loves revs....defining characteristics? Proven power recipes? (will google but)

MZ - Wow, hadn't heard of it before but only 158 kilos, up to 3.3l, and toyota reliability. How much does it like revs? Because if it likes revs as much as the KLZE (which has proven recipes to 9.5k, but even 9k would be enough) this may be the answer

J v6 - Same as the mz basically, don't know much, impressively light, and if it revs high this might be the answer

SO it seems to me like I have a few candidates for each cylinder count

V6 - MZ engine, J series, KLZE, and possibly duratec (but that's heavier than the others)

V8 - LS, 1UZ, northstar, and for a bit more money - maserati spec f136 (which wouldn't need all that much work for 9k rpm)

V10 - Probably not an option but audi v10 and bmw s85 (expensive though for both)

V12 - I saw v12 suggested but never any speciic one

Should I pick the best for each cylinder coun than pick a cylinder count or pick a cylinder count and then pick the best one. Out of all these what do you think?

In reply to ScottyB :

Wow, both of those sound intoxicating. THe 2gr is a bit on the heavy side but the exhaust sound of 180 headers opens the ls up as an option again........I guess it's hard to get past 2v per cylinder pushrod, slow revving and low revving, american v8

The 2GR-FE is the perfect engine for a Europa.  About 300 hp in street trim, 60* all aluminum with 4 valves per cylinder and forged rods.  Dual VVT-I on both the intake and exhaust cams, timing chain, roller rockers.

If that's not enough, it takes boost well.  
 

It even has some Lotus cred (there is a 430 hp version found in the Exige and the Evora).

If this interests you, I've got a complete strong running Avalon with a nice 2GR-FE on board. $900 (can easily zero it out once you sell the trans and the rest of the car). 
 

Don't know where you are... I am in Columbia SC 

In reply to enginehelp :

You've got mail. 

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Sorry I've been kind of busy

That is very alluring.....how much does it like to rev?.....Stock forged rods is very intriguing as it would only need pistons for high boost/piece of mind

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

What do you mean

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Wait you're the resident europa expert......how dumb is my idea?

It does interest me but I'm afraid i'll have to decline your offer. I was hoping to start work this summer but corona has hit hard so right now I'm just doing some planning for this dream until my finances are in order to build

Rotaries are crazy reliable.  They have crap ecu and wiring harnesses cuz that shizz is old.

Rebuild harness and port a rotary and run on any number of ecus for 200 hp all day long and 8 to 10k rev limits.

If it doesn't win for horsepower to weight and size, I don't know what does.

Got soul.  Got plenty of aftermarket.  Responds well to turbski.

Do eet!

Edit to add...  I ran one in my racecar for 10 years.  No issues ever.  Just zing and zoom for every endurance race.  Don't overheat.  Don't let your harness get crispy.  If it does have an issue, rebuild for 600$ and 1 weekend.

In reply to enginehelp :

I'm no expert, but I've made lots of attempts at this, and figured out many wrong ways to do it. 
 

I meant I sent you a PM through the forum. It should arrive as an email to the email address you registered on this site with. 
 

Or text me. I've like to talk. 22 nine 92 ate 262 six

enginehelp said:

In reply to shelbyz :

Duratec - Hadn't thought of it but a quick google shows it's competitive with many other v6s including the KLZE weight wise - .5 iters more for only 48 pounds sounds like qutie a good tradeoff. Do you happen to know how much it loves revs?

LQ1 - Too heavy

Northstar - I don't know much about it, could yo umaybe do a quick learn me? How much does it loves revs....defining characteristics? Proven power recipes? (will google but)

MZ - Wow, hadn't heard of it before but only 158 kilos, up to 3.3l, and toyota reliability. How much does it like revs? Because if it likes revs as much as the KLZE (which has proven recipes to 9.5k, but even 9k would be enough) this may be the answer

J v6 - Same as the mz basically, don't know much, impressively light, and if it revs high this might be the answer

 

I'll admit I don't have intimate knowledge of the potential of each engine and/or how high they can be revved. Just rattled off some DOHC V6's and V8's I knew of off the top of my head. But for whatever they're worth, I do have some other tidbits on some of them:

On the Duratec 3.0:

-Noble used built versions of this engine in some of their early cars with either a turbo or supercharger. They made well over double what a stock 3.0 made power wise, but not sure how high they revved.

-Found this on the Wiki page for the engine: "A racing version of this engine exists and is used on mini prototypes like the Juno SS3 V6. It is a 3.0 L (2,967 cc) naturally aspirated non variable timing engines producing between 350 and 400 hp (261 and 298 kW) with a redline of around 8700 rpm. "

-One place to maybe do some HW on the potential of the 3.0 is in Contour/Mystique/Cougar circles where the engine is commonly used as a bolt in upgrade over the earlier 2.5 version. More performance oriented applications of the engine would be cars like the Ford Mondeo, or the version used in the 1st gen Mazda 6.

-IMO, one of the biggest advantages to this engine is how plentiful and cheap it is. Ford was stuffing the 3.0 version in multiple vehicles for like a decade and a half. One visit to a local You-pull yard and you're probably guaranteed to find at least a dozen. Best source would probably be the Escape/Mariner/Tribute, which usually makes it's way to the yard because of the common auto trans failure or terminal rot in the front subframe or rear shock towers.

Northstar: My knowledge of these is limited outside of knowing that (at least in the cars they originally came in) they sound great and are nice to drive, but a nightmare to work on and have well known (but correctable) issues with headgaskets and bolts that GM did somewhat improve in later versions.

-The "Shortstar" is a DOHC V6 based on the Northstar that was found in the Intrigue and later 2nd Gen Auroras.

-At one point I was kind of intrigued by the possibility of Northstar swaps into Fiero's and did a little research. IIRC, there was maybe one or two guys that did the swap with a manual and were revving them past 8k with tuning and a valve spring change.

Honda J-series: I know of guy in my general area that has a J swapped S2000 that's twin turbo and runs 7's in the 1/4. Not sure what it revs to though.

Don't know much about the Toyota motors other than that the MZ are usually pretty bulletproof in Camry's and ES300's.

enginehelp said:

In reply to wspohn :

Ecotecs go up to 500???? THat's insane. I haven't really considered i4s as I consider them to be the most boring of engiens and have an aversion to them but that's impressive

You can do the 400 bhp you desire without even going into the bottom end of the Ecotec. My modest street Solstice is running 375 bhp/375 Tq with nothing more than a modified stock EFR turbo with a larger impeller wheel, and a new tune.  You can get over the 400 mark with a turbo swap and tune. Accepted wisdom is that you should consider swapping out pistons and rods for reliability if you want to exceed around 450 bhp..  Given the likely weight of your car, I would think that even 400 bhp might be a bit hard to hook up without some very judicious throttle manipulation!

Nice thing about the Ecotec is that it is relatively small and they are plentiful in good used condition.  It would be interesting to investigate whether the whole Cobalt FWD power unit might fit right behind the driver in your car - sure would have unbeatable polar moment!

Suggest that you take a look at this old thread where someone wanted to do a similar conversion - some good pics.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/ultralight-mid-engine-performance-car-from-a-chevy/89454/page1/

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

That does sound good. I don't know though because I know every little about rotaries, hear bad things about them, and am not a fan of premix.......I'm going to do some more research before I sayno but we will see.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Haha, like edison you know lot's of way not to do it

Oh I'll check my email, thanks.

I hope you don't mind if I prefer to keep it on the forum related channels?

In reply to shelbyz :

That's fair, thanks for the list it was actually very helpful and I did some research and, especially in the v6 arena, your suggestions are looking better than the klze

Thanks for the duratec info......8700 would be plenty. It does have a 40 hour lifespan before bearing and ring replacement BUT i'm sure with modern tech I can give it a longer lifespan

I found this about the northstar:

"A stock Northstar engine will run more than 8,000 rpm with just a valvespring change (of course, the factory rev limiter in the ECU must be recalibrated). The stock, hydraulic, bucket-style lifters are good through 8,500 rpm (start shifting by 8,000). The trick valvesprings and retainers are available from CHRF and bolt in to the head without machining."

Now that is looking VERY alluring, and the bore/stroke ration is 1.105 which is, well it's quite a bit lower than something like the 1.11 1lr gue (which gets to 9k) or the f20c (which has something like 1.8) BUT it's still enough to lower the piston speed and obviously rev that high.

The j series is also very alluring. it's lighter the other 3 liter v6s but it's 3.2l with a bore stroke ration of 1.03. It can rev pretty high, likes turbo, and is not that big and has honda reliabiity.

THe MZ is again very alluring because it's 3l variant weight 12 pounds less than the rest, and it's still a good engine with most of the baove characteristics

In reply to wspohn :

THat is isnanely impressive, I'll take a look and may be consider it....thanks

just something to watch out for...anytime you're revving something way higher than stock, research to be sure that you don't run into overspinning your accessories (PS pumps come to mind) and pump cavitation problems.  water and oil pumps can start doing weird stuff once you go 2-3k RPM above the stock intended limit.  

In reply to enginehelp :

I don't mind keeping it on the forum, but I am potentially willing to make you an offer that I will not do publicly. 
 

You won't know if you don't ask. 

In reply to ScottyB :

Yeah that is definitely something I am going to watch for. I'm probably going to go with an electric waterpump and dry sump oiling system and oil pump

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Yeah no that's all good, I'm all good with emails and PMs......