Hey TDI Owners...

The_Jed wrote: ...yet prices are still high at the stealerships if you want to buy one from them. Why do we let them have this power over us?

Because you let them. If all the Joe Publics would boycott buying them, VW would see the error in their ways.

Maybe.

I saw my first "ambulance chaser" law firm ad on TV seeking people that bought VW's for a potential Class Action suit this morning.

RealMiniParker wrote:

The_Jed wrote: ...yet prices are still high at the stealerships if you want to buy one from them. Why do we let them have this power over us?

Because you let them. If all the Joe Publics would boycott buying them, VW would see the error in their ways. Maybe.

VW has already set aside several Billion dollars to deal with this scandal, and they've taken out loans for an additional 21 Billion. When you count the loss of value when the stock price tanked, the impending lawsuits, and the interest on those 21 Billion in loans, VW would be stung pretty badly even if sales went unaffected. But sales are down too. I'm guessing VW as a company has already seen the error of their ways and will continue to feel the burn, but whether the individuals directly responsible are truly sorry is another question.

Listening to the presser now live, VW just said they cannot give any details on the potential fix, or timeline for the USA cars.

Just listened to the whole recording, 2 hours of drivel with no solutions

That's going to get interesting then - IIRC CA set them a deadline to come up with a fix (not implement, just come up with it and a timeline for the rollout), if they don't meet the deadline, they won't let the owners renew registrations.

That's going to be a major fustercluck if they can't fix the affected cars ASAP.

BoxheadTim wrote: That's going to get interesting then - IIRC CA set them a deadline to come up with a fix (not implement, just come up with it and a timeline for the rollout), if they don't meet the deadline, they won't let the owners renew registrations. That's going to be a major fustercluck if they can't fix the affected cars ASAP.

Today is days 20 since the meeting between CARB/EPA and VW where VW put forth its plan for the USA cars...

BoxheadTim wrote: That's going to get interesting then - IIRC CA set them a deadline to come up with a fix (not implement, just come up with it and a timeline for the rollout), if they don't meet the deadline, they won't let the owners renew registrations. That's going to be a major fustercluck if they can't fix the affected cars ASAP.

My understanding is they have submitted the fix to CARB/EPA. It's now out of VW's hands, and they're waiting for the reply.

They're understandably keeping their mouth shut on what the proposed fix was, as it may change, or not meet approval, and that is unknown at this time.

They met their end of the deadline, now our agencies need to respond.

Looks like a buy back may in fact be in the works, what I am most curious about tho is the 115k number. From other reports I've read it says there are 325k of the "Gen1" (non urea) equipped cars in the USA, so why buy back only 115k? Perhaps only the California registered cars get a buy back? I dunno...

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/07/volkswagen-likely-to-buy-back-115000-cars-in-us--german-report.html

From what I know of the issue, they could almost certainly fix it with software by cranking up the EGR rate. But it would come at the cost of wrecking the mpg of the things and probably needing more frequent EGR cleaning. Manufacturers started using urea because it let them meet the specs without sacrificing nearly as much fuel economy.

Storz wrote: Looks like a buy back may in fact be in the works, what I am most curious about tho is the 115k number. From other reports I've read it says there are 325k of the "Gen1" (non urea) equipped cars in the USA, so why buy back only 115k? Perhaps only the California registered cars get a buy back? I dunno... http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/07/volkswagen-likely-to-buy-back-115000-cars-in-us--german-report.html

My guess is it's a cost/benefit guesstimate.

Older high mileage cars can be bought back based on lower resale more efficiently than trying to fix them. Newer/low mileage cars with higher resale values will be more cost efficient to implement the fix.

rslifkin wrote: From what I know of the issue, they could almost certainly fix it with software by cranking up the EGR rate. But it would come at the cost of wrecking the mpg of the things and probably needing more frequent EGR cleaning. Manufacturers started using urea because it let them meet the specs without sacrificing nearly as much fuel economy.

Seems like if they could, they would.

Urea also allows diesel to meet the lower emissions requirements that EGR can't do, regardless of fuel economy.

An interesting aspect of a potential buyback is that the longer they can delay it, the less they have to pay.

If they do it, I cannot imagine the inspecting each car... buying up some trashed diesels might be an investment!

I really don't want a car that has been that extensively modified at a dealership if in fact they do a retrofit of a Urea system on my '12 Jetta.

Storz wrote: I really don't want a car that has been that extensively modified at a dealership if in fact they do a retrofit of a Urea system on my '12 Jetta.

+1.

I've been on the dealer side of these kind of recalls and the amount of one off parts that these recalls require plus the troubleshoot tree.... I'll pass, unless I can do it myself.

Although I do see the potential buyback in older models driving up the price in newer models as there aren't any older versions to buy......

"Without citing its sources, Germany's daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung said the company expected it would have to either refund the purchase price of a fifth of the diesel vehicles affected or offer a new car at a significant discount."

Refund the purchase price? Sign me up.

Market value? That could get ugly fast. What is the market value of an asset that you do not wish to sell?

Significant Discount? Depends on what you think is significant. I'll take an even trade on a 2016 GTI.

As far as retrofitting goes, I still don't what legal precedent exists to compel me, as a private citizen, to comply. It was the automaker's responsibility to sell me a legal product, but I own the car now... not them. Why am I obliged to cooperate with resolving their deficiencies?

bludroptop wrote: "Without citing its sources, Germany's daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung said the company expected it would have to either refund the purchase price of a fifth of the diesel vehicles affected or offer a new car at a significant discount." Refund the purchase price? Sign me up. Market value? That could get ugly fast. What is the market value of an asset that you do not wish to sell? Significant Discount? Depends on what you think is significant. I'll take an even trade on a 2016 GTI. As far as retrofitting goes, I still don't what legal precedent exists to compel me, as a private citizen, to comply. It was the automaker's responsibility to sell me a legal product, but I own the car now... not them. Why am I obliged to cooperate with resolving their deficiencies?

Agree on all counts.

bludroptop wrote: It was the automaker's responsibility to sell me a legal product, but I own the car now... not them. Why am I obliged to cooperate with resolving their deficiencies?

If you bought stolen goods, but you did not know they were stolen, and they were later identified as stolen, would you not then be forced by law to give up the goods?

It doesn't matter if you bought them in good faith, they were illegally provided for sale in the first place.

Storz wrote: Looks like a buy back may in fact be in the works, what I am most curious about tho is the 115k number. From other reports I've read it says there are 325k of the "Gen1" (non urea) equipped cars in the USA, so why buy back only 115k? Perhaps only the California registered cars get a buy back? I dunno... http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/07/volkswagen-likely-to-buy-back-115000-cars-in-us--german-report.html

I wonder if they are factoring that removing 1/3rd of the vehicles will reduce "fleet pollution" in absolute terms to acceptable levels.

I have no idea WHAT the numbers are, I'm just wondering that.

Storz wrote: I really don't want a car that has been that extensively modified at a dealership if in fact they do a retrofit of a Urea system on my '12 Jetta.

For better or worse, it is highly unlikely that a urea retrofit is possible, because it has different exhaust tunnel requirements. Which is probably a large part of why it wasn't used in the first place.

Knurled wrote:

Storz wrote: Looks like a buy back may in fact be in the works, what I am most curious about tho is the 115k number. From other reports I've read it says there are 325k of the "Gen1" (non urea) equipped cars in the USA, so why buy back only 115k? Perhaps only the California registered cars get a buy back? I dunno... http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/07/volkswagen-likely-to-buy-back-115000-cars-in-us--german-report.html

I wonder if they are factoring that removing 1/3rd of the vehicles will reduce "fleet pollution" in absolute terms to acceptable levels. I have no idea WHAT the numbers are, I'm just wondering that.

being that the off cycle numbers were so bad, it may contribute to the total removed, but I don't think it's the whole thing.

Others contributions- how many are left? Lots of cars are crashed and not repaired.

And I understand if they reduce the fleet to a smaller size, the fine gets smaller, too.

aircooled wrote: An interesting aspect of a potential buyback is that the longer they can delay it, the less they have to pay. If they do it, I cannot imagine the inspecting each car... buying up some trashed diesels might be an investment!

Just like with the Goodwill program, you would likely have to prove that you owned the car prior to a certain date to be eligible for a buy back.

xflowgolf wrote: If you bought stolen goods, but you did not know they were stolen, and they were later identified as stolen, would you not then be forced by law to give up the goods? It doesn't matter if you bought them in good faith, they were illegally provided for sale in the first place.

Flawed analogy - you cannot legally purchase or own stolen property regardless of your complicity. I legally own my Vdub.

I'm really hoping for a sweetheart deal from VWoA on a new GTI or one of those new AWD Golf Sportwagens that are rumored to be in the works. But it will take more than a $500 gift card to make me whole.

I've got a friend who's kinda itching to get rid of his TDI sportwagen for something different, so I'm thinking the massive loss in value from all of this might be an excuse to pick it up from him cheap-ish. Throw a rear bar and a tune at it and it should be an ok daily.

bludroptop wrote: Flawed analogy - you cannot legally purchase or own stolen property regardless of your complicity. I legally own my Vdub.

I still think your assumption is a bit flawed.

Keep in mind that the subject TDIs were illegally imported into the US (because VW filed false paperwork), so they are potentially subject to seizure and destruction if they wanted to go all the way down that avenue.

bludroptop wrote: I'm really hoping for a sweetheart deal from VWoA on a new GTI or one of those new AWD Golf Sportwagens that are rumored to be in the works. But it will take more than a $500 gift card to make me whole.

Agreed. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.