Honda - I love you; and Saab - really, REALLY?

I feel the need to defend SAAB a little here:

In the 70's and 80's, SAAB was off the deep end for engineering with maintenance in mind. The 99s and 900s of that era were a true joy to work on. Major service points were designed together. Fasteners were standardized and tool entrapment was non-existent. A 13mm and 17mm wrench and ratchet could disassemble most of the car.

The pendulum started swinging the other way with the 9000. I loathed doing any work on my 9000, which is why it is gone. The 900 and 99T in my stable are still good friends, not in small part because they are so easy to work on. And I say that in comparison to the 87 CRX I owned too.

Don't broad-brush a marque for your experience with one car.

Old Honda back of block oil filter is a minor inconvenience. New Honda, at least the R18, is easy right underneath by the oil pan. Near vertical too. Honda V6, I recall going into the lower A arm.

Mezzanine wrote: Don't broad-brush a marque for your experience with one car.

this is true.. once you figure out the logic to the older saabs.. everything falls to hand. The 9-3.. you are DEEP into GM territory here.

It's a SAAB. It's designed by people who design jets. Are jets easy to work on?

Appleseed wrote: It's a SAAB. It's designed by people who design jets. Are jets easy to work on?

Yea, they usually are. And based on my Saab, it too is, and follows the thinking of jet engineering. Personally, I like working on it, a whole lot.

My Saab 93 has the cleanest and easiest oil changes of any car I've ever encountered. The lock release electrical connectors are the best I've ever seen on any car. Interior panels and components all come out easily and quickly while at the same time being held securely.

Sure, it's an overly complex critter, and with so many gee-gaws something is always in the process of failing. But as far as working on it, I definitely like it and find it overall very easy to do.

I just changed the oil in my Corvair last night for the first time. The filter is in the engine compartment, and all you have to do is loosen a single bolt and the filter drops out. Easiest oil change I've ever done, and I've done hundreds of them.

foxtrapper wrote:

Appleseed wrote: It's a SAAB. It's designed by people who design jets. Are jets easy to work on?

Yea, they usually are. And based on my Saab, it too is, and follows the thinking of jet engineering. Personally, I like working on it, a whole lot. My Saab 93 has the cleanest and easiest oil changes of any car I've ever encountered. The lock release electrical connectors are the best I've ever seen on any car. Interior panels and components all come out easily and quickly while at the same time being held securely. Sure, it's an overly complex critter, and with so many gee-gaws something is always in the process of failing. But as far as working on it, I definitely like it and find it overall very easy to do.

This. Aside from the engine bay being tight, like most everything else these days, all of the SAAB cars I have had have been at least logical. Like fox said the electrical connectors are absolutely the best I have seen in a car.

I don't feel like I was broad-brushing Saab in general, just complaining about ridiculous maintenance procedures on my car (the 1999 9-3).

How has no one else commented on the dipstick that lives inside the fill tube? Honestly, you pour oil in, then oil is on the walls of the fill tube. Dipstick in and out will just cover the end of the dipstick in the oil that is on the walls of the fill tube, until you wait like 5-10 minutes for all the oil to drain down. Since I didn't know the exact fill volume of oil, I had to add oil 3 times to get it up to the correct level. so 15-30 minutes of WAITING just to fill the oil.

Like I said, its like the engineers (GM, Saab, whoever), never even tried to put oil in the car.

djsilver wrote: Here's the real deal. The manufacturers aren't worried about maintenance because they design it to only last until it's out of warranty, then they want you to buy another one. Anything you do to make it last longer means it will delay your purchase of a new vehicle.

I find this to be a commonly-held (and quite cynical) view, but I actually think it is pretty far from the truth. "Planned obsolescence" as it is often called only goes so far. If you are in a monopoly situation, where people have to buy your product, then sure, it could work. But in the real world with lots of competitive forces I can't truly believe that companies get ahead in the long run by selling products that are known to be crappier than their competition for the same price.

Many makes even advertise with "there are more of our cars on the road after 10 years than any other make" quite frequently.

Listen, I can't hear you, because I want one of these someday

In reply to Robbie:

I will take the dipstick in the fill tube after having our R350. the dipstick is basically under one of the intake snorkels and you can not see to put it back in the dark without a light. Besides, you still should wait no matter where the dipstick is for the oil to work it sway down to the pan. The one gripe I do have with the SAAB dipstick is that the end that you use to measure the oil is a black piece of plastic which makes it hard to read the level.

Robbie wrote: How has no one else commented on the dipstick that lives inside the fill tube? Honestly, you pour oil in, then oil is on the walls of the fill tube.

I'm a little confused from your earlier description. Are you talking the transmission? Because in that case, virtually every automatic transmission is done that way. If it's the engine, check out vans some time. As well most riding mowers.

I remember the dipstick on my old Hyundai Excel. There was NO tube. It went right into the block. Try finding that one in the dark.

Personally, I always liked Saab's dipstick in the filler tube idea. It put everything in one easy to use spot

foxtrapper wrote:

Robbie wrote: How has no one else commented on the dipstick that lives inside the fill tube? Honestly, you pour oil in, then oil is on the walls of the fill tube.

I'm a little confused from your earlier description. Are you talking the transmission? Because in that case, virtually every automatic transmission is done that way. If it's the engine, check out vans some time. As well most riding mowers.

The dipstick-filltube has never bothered me at all... I retrofit a five speed into a four speed case (chillcast, supposedly stronger), and had to make a modified oil filler tube that is a good deal smaller. Filling the oil takes a long time, but is easy because I used the manual to determine how much oil the engine takes instead of just guessing.

bravenrace wrote: I just changed the oil in my Corvair last night for the first time. The filter is in the engine compartment, and all you have to do is loosen a single bolt and the filter drops out. Easiest oil change I've ever done, and I've done hundreds of them.

My Outback is even easier. Just reach in and unscrew it. It is upside down and has a channel around it so any oil drains back into the crankcase