how can you guys love the miata????

Vigo wrote: But if you drive MOSTLY street, meh.

I couldn't agree more. I'd only driven Miatas in auto-x and HPDEs (and maybe 20 miles on the street total) until I bought mine about a year ago. I thought they were pretty awesome, having mostly driven them competitively. After getting mine, I was actually pretty "meh" about the car until I got it out on the track with a good suspension and slicks.

It's a blast to push to the limit and takes that like a champ, but as a daily driver, it's pretty underwhelming.

DavidinDurango wrote:

wbjones wrote: the only problem with a Miata ( for me ) is I hate convertibles ... but that's not the Miata's problem ...it's mine

Hardtop.

They still have a convertible-tiny trunk, though.

I wouldn't mind a Miata if it was a hatchback. Kind of the MGB-GT of Miatas.

Knurled wrote: I wouldn't mind a Miata if it was a hatchback. Kind of the MGB-GT of Miatas.

That would be pretty much the perfect car for me. Right now I have an old RWD celica hatchback and a miata as drivers. Celica is great because it has a TON of cargo space with the rear seats down and the hatch - can fit 6 race tires a jack and supplies in there. Miata with that kind of utility would be sweet.

Can't wait until I can get a beat old FT86. Gonna be a long wait though

Six tires? That beats the four I can cram in the RX-7.

I'd whinge about how it's impossible to find old Celicas, but then, it's also pretty damned hard to find RX-7s nowadays too.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: A buddy of mine owns an S2000, and as I was telling him about the fun I've been having with Miatas recently he told me I should just get a S2000. While the S2000 is probably the better car, though, I just can't justify the multiple factors greater in cost. Yes, I've ridden in his S2000, and yes, the engine is about the closest thing to a religious experience as any n/a 4-pot is likely to be, but apart from straight-line speed, is it worth 8-10x the price for a decent used example? I can't justify it. If I really needed that much speed, I'd turbo a 1.8 motor and drop it in the Miata. The S2000 also seemed more cramped than the Miata, but that's just my impression.

Really really depends what you are looking for in the car. I jumped up to a 2003 S2000 after selling my '94 Miata. They are similar, but not the same car.

First off, a clean example is not 8-10x the price of a decent Miata. More like 2-4 times the price for an NA/NB with similar mileage/condition to an S2000. Add in that the S2000 is ready to go right out of the box. A Miata you will need to modify. You are looking at about ~2.5 times the cost for comparable condition and preparation. Operating costs are comparable.

Price aside, the cars are different. If you are looking for pure, unadulterated fun, the Miata wins. The S2000 is not quite as fun and gleeful as the Miata. The Miata also has better belt lines that give better visibility and let you hang an elbow out better. The S2000 is the better car. It is more comfortable, better appointed, better looking (IMHO), and has a very usable trunk. The driving experience is more thrilling. The engine is tons of fun to wind out to red line.

The S2000 is better for me, because I wanted a well appointed dd that was still tons of fun to drive around. It was worth the $2k-3k premium over an MSM or NC Miata to get the car I wanted, and I figure it will hold it's value much better too.

I have not partaken in the coolaid

aussiesmg wrote: I have not partaken in the coolaid

Same here. Not for lack of trying, just not a great selection in my area.

Actually, when I was car shopping a few months ago one lot I looked at had one when I drove by. When I went back looking for it I found out it was the owners personal car and not for sale.

In reply to neon4891: Not a great selection of Miatas? Does that place really exist?

In reply to aussiesmg:

I walk a different path......I'd rather have a not so flamboyant e36 that's the same size and isn't a convertible.

DavidinDurango wrote:

wbjones wrote: the only problem with a Miata ( for me ) is I hate convertibles ... but that's not the Miata's problem ...it's mine

Hardtop.

I also am in the minority and dislike Miatas. For me, any car used for serious performance driving should have a real roof. A hardtop is the kind of the worst of both worlds, the added weight, extra chassis flex, added noise, and lack of security of a convertible without the bigger trunk and extra crash safety of a real coupe...and on top of that it takes extra work to put the top down. NO THANKS!

That isn't even mentioning the problem of fitting in one with a helmet on. (I am 6' 2")

The final straw for me is lack of normally-aspirated tuning potential. My basis of experience is the AE86 Corolla, of which I have two, which is RWD and a similar size to the Miata, and not much heavier, but also a lot more practical, and also has a much greater scope for N/A tuning.

I am not trying to talk anyone else out of buying one, and in the grand scheme of cars, they are still pretty alright, but my own needs are much better met by keeping one of my AE86s and I also bought a new Scion FR-S. There is just something about a real-world, day-in-day-out, real roof, cargo room included with lightweight, responsive RWD fun that is tough to beat with a sunny no-room, weekend-only toy car.

I dunno...the fact that an entire spec racing series was built around the car leads me to believe they're great performance cars.

I think it's kind of silly to knock the Miata by saying it doesn't have a lot of room. It's a 2 seat convertible. Were you expecting to haul lumber with it? That's almost like saying a Suburban sucks at autox.

I've owned a ton of cars, some with more than 4x the hp of my Miata. Yet the Miata is still one of my favorites. Even the current one I have now, tired suspension and all, is more fun to drive...on the street...than most other cars I've owned. Call me drunk with coolaid, but I'm a happy drunk.

Klayfish wrote: I think it's kind of silly to knock the Miata by saying it doesn't have a lot of room. It's a 2 seat convertible. Were you expecting to haul lumber with it? That's almost like saying a Suburban sucks at autox.

I know it is a two-seat convertible, hence my distaste for it. I would never give up the extra room, comfort, and slightly more utility of an otherwise similar 2+2 coupe for a Miata is which is a worse all-arounder without really being a better small lightweight performance car. If you don't give two flying flips about the roof coming off (I would rather it doesn't) then the convertible is almost never a better option.

It isn't like saying a Suburban sucks at auto-x, it is like saying, "I never need to haul 7 people at the same time, so for my full-size truck needs, a pickup is better because the powertrain options are similar, the mileage is in the same ballpark, and I can tow a small trailer or a big fifth-wheel or haul a load of gravel/barkdust/manure, which can't be said about the Suburban."

ae86andkp61 wrote:

DavidinDurango wrote:

wbjones wrote: the only problem with a Miata ( for me ) is I hate convertibles ... but that's not the Miata's problem ...it's mine

Hardtop.

I also am in the minority and dislike Miatas. For me, any car used for serious performance driving should have a real roof. A hardtop is the kind of the worst of both worlds, the added weight, extra chassis flex, added noise, and lack of security of a convertible without the bigger trunk and extra crash safety of a real coupe...and on top of that it takes extra work to put the top down. NO THANKS! That isn't even mentioning the problem of fitting in one with a helmet on. (I am 6' 2") The final straw for me is lack of normally-aspirated tuning potential. My basis of experience is the AE86 Corolla, of which I have two, which is RWD and a similar size to the Miata, and not much heavier, but also a lot more practical, and also has a much greater scope for N/A tuning. I am not trying to talk anyone else out of buying one, and in the grand scheme of cars, they are still pretty alright, but my own needs are much better met by keeping one of my AE86s and I also bought a new Scion FR-S. There is just something about a real-world, day-in-day-out, real roof, cargo room included with lightweight, responsive RWD fun that is tough to beat with a sunny no-room, weekend-only toy car.

Didn't you kind of already state the same opinions on page 3? It's cool that you don't like the miata, but your reasons are why people buy them so you're not really making a point. I don't like roofs, back seats or crappy stick axles, but plenty of people do. Everyone drinks the cool aide of their choice.

-H

ae86andkp61 wrote:

DavidinDurango wrote:

wbjones wrote: the only problem with a Miata ( for me ) is I hate convertibles ... but that's not the Miata's problem ...it's mine

Hardtop.

I also am in the minority and dislike Miatas. For me, any car used for serious performance driving should have a real roof. A hardtop is the kind of the worst of both worlds, the added weight, extra chassis flex, added noise, and lack of security of a convertible without the bigger trunk and extra crash safety of a real coupe...and on top of that it takes extra work to put the top down. NO THANKS! That isn't even mentioning the problem of fitting in one with a helmet on. (I am 6' 2") The final straw for me is lack of normally-aspirated tuning potential. My basis of experience is the AE86 Corolla, of which I have two, which is RWD and a similar size to the Miata, and not much heavier, but also a lot more practical, and also has a much greater scope for N/A tuning. I am not trying to talk anyone else out of buying one, and in the grand scheme of cars, they are still pretty alright, but my own needs are much better met by keeping one of my AE86s and I also bought a new Scion FR-S. There is just something about a real-world, day-in-day-out, real roof, cargo room included with lightweight, responsive RWD fun that is tough to beat with a sunny no-room, weekend-only toy car.

How much power are people really getting out of the 4age normally without putting something together that looks and behaves like a Formula Atlantic motor?

Because i keep seeing all this hooplah about how incredibly awesome the 4age is for making huge amounts of n/a power.

...backed up by a bunch of 150-160whp dyno charts.

Well, 150-160whp sounds like a SUPERCHARGED miata dyno to me. I dont see those numbers as hurting his point at all. Now whether it actually takes a full build of mixing and matching stuff that costs $$ or was never sold in this country, i have no idea.

Vigo wrote: Well, 150-160whp sounds like a SUPERCHARGED miata dyno to me. I dont see those numbers as hurting his point at all. Now whether it actually takes a full build of mixing and matching stuff that costs $$ or was never sold in this country, i have no idea.

Now, this is the thing. I'm not going to say that i think building an n/a BP is a good idea, but 150-160whp on an n/a BP is child's play.

But nobody outside of Miata-dom knows this, because why would they?

Unless someone can convince me that 200whp n/a 4ages are falling out of the trees and installed in streetable cars everywhere, the whole "AE86 is more better because 4age makes tons of power n/a" argument is pretty asinine.

172whp n/a BP. Stock bottom end. Easily duplicated. And from what i understand, it's pretty hard to NOT make 150whp with a fairly simple VVT motor these days.

http://clubroadster.net/vb_forum/59-irtb-individual-runner-throttle-bodies/81194-my-172whp-n-engine-stock-bottom-end-no-porting.html

Swank Force One wrote:

Vigo wrote: Well, 150-160whp sounds like a SUPERCHARGED miata dyno to me. I dont see those numbers as hurting his point at all. Now whether it actually takes a full build of mixing and matching stuff that costs $$ or was never sold in this country, i have no idea.

Now, this is the thing. I'm not going to say that i think building an n/a BP is a good idea, but 150-160whp on an n/a BP is child's play. But nobody outside of Miata-dom knows this, because why would they? Unless someone can convince me that 200whp n/a 4ages are falling out of the trees and installed in streetable cars everywhere, the whole "AE86 is more better because 4age makes tons of power n/a" argument is pretty asinine.

N/A power is boring anyway.

93EXCivic wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

Vigo wrote: Well, 150-160whp sounds like a SUPERCHARGED miata dyno to me. I dont see those numbers as hurting his point at all. Now whether it actually takes a full build of mixing and matching stuff that costs $$ or was never sold in this country, i have no idea.

Now, this is the thing. I'm not going to say that i think building an n/a BP is a good idea, but 150-160whp on an n/a BP is child's play. But nobody outside of Miata-dom knows this, because why would they? Unless someone can convince me that 200whp n/a 4ages are falling out of the trees and installed in streetable cars everywhere, the whole "AE86 is more better because 4age makes tons of power n/a" argument is pretty asinine.

N/A power is boring anyway.

N/A: The Expensive Way To Go Slow

Vigo wrote: Well, 150-160whp sounds like a SUPERCHARGED miata dyno to me.

My supercharged 1.8 Miata, using only the best 10-year-old technology and built in an HVAC shop, is making 235-240 rwhp and about 185 ft-lbs of torque.

150-160whp supercharged miata sounds like someone running an M45 (awful) on a 1.6 (blargh) in an attempt to mimic how crappy a stock 4agze motor really is. Yet... still making more power.

You can buy a daily driver Civic HB and a Miata for the same price as a clean AE86 GT-S.

If you're going to talk derivatives, such as taking a stock 1.6 NA miata and putting a later 1.8 (let's go wild and say VVT 1.8), can't we extend the same courtesy to the 4AG family?

20V Blacktop: 165 PS (121 kW, 163 hp) at 7,800 rpm with 16.5 kg·m (162 N·m, 120 lb-ft) of torque at 5,600 rpm

Or really, the 1.8L 4AG equivalent: 2ZZ-GE: 191 PS (140 kW; 188 hp) @ 8250 rpm with 180.44 N·m (133.09 lb·ft) @ 6800 rpm

Though admittedly, I'm approaching this from an "AW11 vs. NA" perspective, not "AE86 vs. NA".

Flynlow wrote: If you're going to talk derivatives, such as taking a stock 1.6 NA miata and putting a later 1.8 (let's go wild and say VVT 1.8), can't we extend the same courtesy to the 4AG family? 20V Blacktop: 165 PS (121 kW, 163 hp) at 7,800 rpm with 16.5 kg·m (162 N·m, 120 lb-ft) of torque at 5,600 rpm Or really, the 1.8L 4AG equivalent: 2ZZ-GE: 191 PS (140 kW; 188 hp) @ 8250 rpm with 180.44 N·m (133.09 lb·ft) @ 6800 rpm Though admittedly, I'm approaching this from an "AW11 vs. NA" perspective, not "AE86 vs. NA".

I believe the argument was AE86 vs. Miata.

In your case, you seem to have gone off into "AW11-with-a-motor-swap, one way more involved than the other, vs. NA."

My only point was that i don't understand the whole "4ages make tons of power n/a, which is a clear point of victory over the Miata" thing.

In fact, i don't think any car that has a 4age in it should be using "power" as a STRENGTH against pretty much any other car made in the last 2 decades.

And this is coming from a registered Toyota Fanboi who quite frankly, finds the BP completely milquetoast.

In reply to Swank Force One:

Fair enough, I was trying for apples to apples . Call it 20V MR2 vs. 1.8 VVT NA Miata. I'd say both are a similar amount of work, with a similar end result. Obviously the Miata is nearly drop in, but there's enough grief with coilpacks and VVT tuning that I don't think it's much easier than a 20V swap if you want everything working happily.

Plus the AW11 has a solid roof and cargo space, two of the main things people have been griping about Miatas in this thread.

Swank Force One wrote: Now, this is the thing. I'm not going to say that i think building an n/a BP is a good idea, but 150-160whp on an n/a BP is child's play. But nobody outside of Miata-dom knows this, because why would they? 172whp n/a BP. Stock bottom end. Easily duplicated. And from what i understand, it's pretty hard to NOT make 150whp with a fairly simple VVT motor these days. http://clubroadster.net/vb_forum/59-irtb-individual-runner-throttle-bodies/81194-my-172whp-n-engine-stock-bottom-end-no-porting.html

So.. yeah. That falls into the "$$" category i mentioned. That's an EXPENSIVE build to get a whopping 172whp.

I agree with your point that it's silly to claim an ae86 advantage on the basis of n/a power, but if it's able to be done much more CHEAPLY than that BP build (on any kind of regular basis.. i can pull off something for nothing pretty easily if there are no restrictions on time or the value of my labor), it would win on that fact alone.