how can you guys love the miata????

how can you guys love the miata?

I can't; I just can't . I've tried but it leaves me empty.

Vigo wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: Now, this is the thing. I'm not going to say that i think building an n/a BP is a good idea, but 150-160whp on an n/a BP is child's play. But nobody outside of Miata-dom knows this, because why would they? 172whp n/a BP. Stock bottom end. Easily duplicated. And from what i understand, it's pretty hard to NOT make 150whp with a fairly simple VVT motor these days. http://clubroadster.net/vb_forum/59-irtb-individual-runner-throttle-bodies/81194-my-172whp-n-engine-stock-bottom-end-no-porting.html

So.. yeah. That falls into the "$$" category i mentioned. That's an EXPENSIVE build to get a whopping 172whp. I agree with your point that it's silly to claim an ae86 advantage on the basis of n/a power, but if it's able to be done much more CHEAPLY than that BP build (on any kind of regular basis.. i can pull off something for nothing pretty easily if there are no restrictions on time or the value of my labor), it would win on that fact alone.

It's really not much money. Megasquirt, shave the head, cams, then breathing mods.

If you think it's any easier or cheaper to make that power on a 4age, then I dunno what to tell you.

You'll need that on a 4age.

Plus a built bottom end and probably some headwork.

But like i said before: n/a is the expensive way to go slow. (However that miata is now faster than his s2000)

My thoughts exactly.

It's really not much money. Megasquirt, shave the head, cams, then breathing mods.

Ok. You start with a non-vvt miata. You need (for this recipe):

vvt head ?

Cams

Valvesprings (have we hit the half-G mark yet? probably )

Retainers

Cam gears?

ITBs (cheap, right? Probably comfortably under 1g for a set?)

injectors

header

full exhaust

standalone (the cheap option is hundreds of dollars, the expensive ones can run into the thousands)

tuning

And then there's a bunch of other BS parts that didnt do much for the dyno chart.

You're kidding yourself if you think he doesn't have more than 3k into the 170whp dyno of that NB. Depending on which brands you use out of that list, it could be like 6k. That is a really expensive build considering how little came out of it and that nothing was done to the bottom end or even the head casting (shaving doesnt count imo). It's not much of a stretch to take the price of a nice NB, add the cost of parts that build to it, add the cost of labor of that build, and be in c5 z51 or even z06 territory. Of course you could make the same power much cheaper, which is, frankly, the only way it makes any sense to me.

Vigo wrote:

It's really not much money. Megasquirt, shave the head, cams, then breathing mods.

Ok. You start with a non-vvt miata. You need (for this recipe): vvt head ? Cams Valvesprings (have we hit the half-G mark yet? probably ) Retainers Cam gears? ITBs (cheap, right? Probably comfortably under 1g for a set?) injectors header full exhaust standalone (the cheap option is hundreds of dollars, the expensive ones can run into the thousands) tuning And then there's a bunch of other BS parts that didnt do much for the dyno chart. You're kidding yourself if you think he doesn't have more than 3k into the 170whp dyno of that NB. Depending on which brands you use out of that list, it could be WELL over 3k. That is a really expensive build considering how little came out of it.

Just as a data point.... that's not a VVT motor. It's a 99-00 head. The car itself is a 99-00, so that helps.

I'm not saying it's CHEAP, but it's not what i'd consider "expensive" when it comes to miata builds.

The price of boosting a Miata and actually having it be OEM-like reliable is staggeringly expensive. This 170whp build in comparison, is pretty cheap.

And the main point was anyways: That you aren't doing that same power on an n/a 4age without substantially more work (and with that, comes more money.)

Like i said from the beginning, i don't think i'd mess with an n/a BP, but that one sure SOUNDS nice, and if i were to somehow end up with another NB, i'd give it a passing thought for something for the wife to bomb around in.

I'm sure that guy is in C5 Z06 territory. It's got a great suspension setup, beautiful leather-wrapped everything interior, and it's just generally one of the best examples of an NB miata i've ever seen.

I don't think it's something he's worried about though... he's got a turbo NA miata, a Spec Miata, an S2000 daily driver, and two FD Rx7s. (And i'll nut swing until the end of the world if he'll share.)

Oh, well in that case i guess he just paid for the non-original shortblock.

I agree with you that doing the same thing to a 4age would probably cost as much. Of course, if you only wanted 170whp i dont think i'd go about it like that ($$$) anyway. There are 170+whp sohc neon dynos on a stock oem intake manifold. ITBs drive the cost of n/a builds up by a pretty good amount.

As for turbo miata reliability, i think it mostly falls to the user. AFAIK my local friend's turbo miata is on the same $129 ebay turbo he installed 7 years ago and hasnt had an actual hard parts failure that wasnt due to 'normal' wear and tear like swapping out the 245k mile shortblock for oil burning issues.

Vigo wrote: Oh, well in that case i guess he just paid for the non-original shortblock. I agree with you that doing the same thing to a 4age would probably cost as much. Of course, if you only wanted 170whp i dont think i'd go about it like that ($$$) anyway. There are 170+whp sohc neon dynos on a stock oem intake manifold. ITBs drive the cost of n/a builds up by a pretty good amount. As for turbo miata reliability, i think it mostly falls to the user. AFAIK my local friend's turbo miata is on the same $129 ebay turbo he installed 7 years ago and hasnt had an actual hard parts failure that wasnt due to 'normal' wear and tear like swapping out the 245k mile shortblock for oil burning issues.

A user like your friend or myself would be able to make n/a power quite a bit cheaper than most people as well. (For instance, just picking up a set of 01-05 pistons used for $50 instead of an entire shortblock.)

Now excuse me, i need to get back to ordering parts for my n/a motor build that doesn't think that 170whp is lofty.

Sure is a lot of talk about turbo this and swap that. Berkeley it, yes it's slow but I enjoy driving mine bone stock.

Klayfish wrote: Sure is a lot of talk about turbo this and swap that. Berkeley it, yes it's slow but I enjoy driving mine bone stock.

Indeed. The stock 1.6 is a very fun little engine. No it's not a speed demon, but that's not the point. It complements the rest of the car nicely.

Turbo Miatas are rather fun, don't get me wrong... but sometimes enough really is enough.

turbo miatas are even more fun when you finally get them to stop cutting out under boost. wheeeee!

Sidenote, my phone auto corrects miata to mistress.

Is'nt a mistress the Bitch you Beat?

Sounds fitting for my miata.

ae86andkp61 wrote: I know it is a two-seat convertible, hence my distaste for it. I would never give up the extra room, comfort, and slightly more utility of an otherwise similar 2+2 coupe for a Miata is which is a worse all-arounder without really being a better small lightweight performance car.

So your problem is that you do not like convertibles. That is fine.

The point of a convertible is not to make the car perform better. The point of a convertible is to be more fun. Fun is not a quantifiable thing.

The fact that the Miata is able to provide so much fun while still offering such excellent driving dynamics is incredibly impressive. It actually is an incredible performance car. It outperforms other cars that have the advantage of the rigidity of a fixed roof, and that is not even the point of the car. The point of the car is Fun.

(However, this is why I think a convertible M3 is silly. The point of the M is improved performance. Taking the roof off contradicts that. It's okay to take the top off a Corvette or 911, but taking the top off a Z06 or GT3 would defeat the purpose.)

Beer Baron wrote: Fun is not a quantifiable thing.

This, in a nutshell. It's not 0-60 or 60-0 or lat-g or anything else so cold and lifeless. It's Fun with two seatbelts.

Also, saying a convertible makes a car worse because it takes up usable space and doesn't help performance is like saying that a woman having big boobs is worse because they get in the way and don't make her any better in bed. Saying a Miata is not a good performance car because it is a convertible and you need to slap a hard top on it to race, is like saying Serena Williams is a terrible athlete because she needs an industrial strength sports bra.

Finally got round to reading that N/A build thread.

It's heartening that so much power can be made so cheaply without having to put a turbo on it. Turbos are great for things like trucks, but a fun car has to sing and for that you have to be N/A.

I was surprised that he's only using 45mm throttle bodies. My 8v VW is probably going to be getting a set of 48s. And one major pet peeve: Cam overlap has dick-all to do with cranking compression, it's all compression ratio and intake valve closing. More overlap for the same duration means the IVC is advanced so cranking compression goes UP, not down. Less overlap kills cranking compression.

And just imagine how much better it could have done if he'd bothered to port the head, and got some decent cams in it. I can understand and somewhat agree with the rationale, though - it's all mostly stock so if something happens, ring up the junkyard and grab another BP block.

There's been a couple 200whp+ n/a BPs on Clubroadster this year, and that site is pretty much the armpit of miata performance, so I imagine there's quite a few more that I don't know about.

Sort of related, sort of not...what kind of power are Spec Miatas making (both the NA and NB)?

Knurled wrote:

Klayfish wrote: Sure is a lot of talk about turbo this and swap that. Berkeley it, yes it's slow but I enjoy driving mine bone stock.

Indeed. The stock 1.6 is a very fun little engine. No it's not a speed demon, but that's not the point. It complements the rest of the car nicely.

No it isn't. The 1.6 is just a lifeless motor. It is the whole reason I bought a Civic instead of Miata.

93EXCivic wrote:

Knurled wrote:

Klayfish wrote: Sure is a lot of talk about turbo this and swap that. Berkeley it, yes it's slow but I enjoy driving mine bone stock.

Indeed. The stock 1.6 is a very fun little engine. No it's not a speed demon, but that's not the point. It complements the rest of the car nicely.

No it isn't. The 1.6 is just a lifeless motor. It is the whole reason I bought a Civic instead of Miata.

Your opinion is invalid.

EvanB wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

Knurled wrote:

Klayfish wrote: Sure is a lot of talk about turbo this and swap that. Berkeley it, yes it's slow but I enjoy driving mine bone stock.

Indeed. The stock 1.6 is a very fun little engine. No it's not a speed demon, but that's not the point. It complements the rest of the car nicely.

No it isn't. The 1.6 is just a lifeless motor. It is the whole reason I bought a Civic instead of Miata.

Your opinion is invalid.

Nope. Just good sense.

EvanB wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

Knurled wrote:

Klayfish wrote: Sure is a lot of talk about turbo this and swap that. Berkeley it, yes it's slow but I enjoy driving mine bone stock.

Indeed. The stock 1.6 is a very fun little engine. No it's not a speed demon, but that's not the point. It complements the rest of the car nicely.

No it isn't. The 1.6 is just a lifeless motor. It is the whole reason I bought a Civic instead of Miata.

Your opinion is invalid.

seconded.

Lof8 wrote:

EvanB wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

Knurled wrote:

Klayfish wrote: Sure is a lot of talk about turbo this and swap that. Berkeley it, yes it's slow but I enjoy driving mine bone stock.

Indeed. The stock 1.6 is a very fun little engine. No it's not a speed demon, but that's not the point. It complements the rest of the car nicely.

No it isn't. The 1.6 is just a lifeless motor. It is the whole reason I bought a Civic instead of Miata.

Your opinion is invalid.

seconded.

Thirdeded

AverageH wrote:

Lof8 wrote:

EvanB wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

Knurled wrote:

Klayfish wrote: Sure is a lot of talk about turbo this and swap that. Berkeley it, yes it's slow but I enjoy driving mine bone stock.

Indeed. The stock 1.6 is a very fun little engine. No it's not a speed demon, but that's not the point. It complements the rest of the car nicely.

No it isn't. The 1.6 is just a lifeless motor. It is the whole reason I bought a Civic instead of Miata.

Your opinion is invalid.

seconded.

Thirdeded

Fourthed

wait a second...

PHeller wrote: You can buy a daily driver Civic HB and a Miata for the same price as a clean AE86 GT-S.

I know, right? Why is anyone even arguing AE86 vs miata in this thread?

The whole ae86 vs miata argument should be: I can find a miata taken relatively good care of for pennies a beat to E36 M3 AE86 is like $5000. So answer is Miata.

If I could find a AE86 for cheap Miata prices I would have 2. Hell if I could have an ae86 for AW11 MR2 prices I would have a few more. Should ask AW11 or Miata really there, you can actually FIND decent AW11s. I'm in the south west and I couldn't find a non-drift destroyed ae86 that isn't a show car.

http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/search/cta?query=ae86&zoomToPosting=&minAsk=&maxAsk=&srchType=T http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/cto/4077846191.html

So you have some JDM scenster retard light garbage for 4500 You have AE85s being advertised as AE86s or AE85s with 4ages that don't run. A soon to be not running AE86? (probably another SR5 conversion) for 4500. A stanced GZE AE86 with all kinds of JDM yo mods that looks decent but is a drift car for $7500. For 7500 the car should be immaculate, this is not. The corolla GTS search brings up a car that hasn't run for 3 years for $4000! WHY?

If I had a $7500 budget I could find REALLY interesting stuff, I could make a rather LONG list of cars I could find is FAR FAR better condition for even well under that budget.

Meanwhile.... http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/search/cta?query=mr2&zoomToPosting=&minAsk=&maxAsk=&srchType=T Multiple running and "everything works" MR2s for less than $2000.

And of course under Miata there are twice as many cars if not more than either of those and a near perfect NA Miata for $3600. If I could find an equivalent AE86 for NEAR that price I would RUN to the seller keeping them on the phone the whole way to make sure nobody else calls them.

http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/cto/4077985318.html

That car is is lightyears better than anything you could ever hope to find under AE86 for that price. Really if you see a MR2 at that price (aw11 non SC) it would probably be in that same pristine condition. Yet an AE86 will be a barely out of the junkyard unless you are lucky and buying from a person who is clueless.

AE86 is not worth it at all, it should never be the answer unless you want ONLY specifically that car for other than "i want to race it" reasons. Like if you are a JNC fanboy and you absolutely MUST have that car in which case you probably want a real ae86 and not a SR5..