How do you determine if the ergonomics of a car are a problem for you if the problem is subtle?

This may be one of the odder questions I've asked on here, but I'd like to get some input before I make yet another costly car purchase/car change mistake.

OK, so I'm not exactly in the best shape and have a bunch of semi-busted joints (kinda runs in the family). Of course it would be nice if I'd actually lived as hard as my body thinks it has, but I digress...

I looked at subrew's FV yesterday because I had high hopes I would fit that car better than the Lynx chassis one I looked at earlier. In both cases, initially getting in and out of the cars didn't seem to be a big deal initially with subrew's car being much easier on me, but with both cars, my joints started complaining loudly on the way back home. Yes, they're kinda complaining a bit when I get in but that's similar to their complaints when I get on a bike, and I've been able to ride long distances on the right bike for years like this.

Yesterday it was bad enough that I had to stop on the way back and take a break - basically hobble around until I was mostly functional again. Heck, when I stopped I more or less fell out of the car as if I had had a quart of 'shine and then wobbled about like I was 90 and not 45.

This afternoon my wife pointed out that the trips to look at the two FVs had one thing in common - I was driving the Evo. A few weeks back I looked at a 911 in the Bay Area and had taken the MR2. The trip to Marin county is longer than to subrew's place, yet I didn't feel like I had been waltzing with a Grizzly after I got back home.

So, how the heck do I find out if the issue are the ergonomics in the Evo rather than the cars I was looking at? It's got "shades of Miata" written all over it again - remember I had to sell that because I couldn't make the ergonomics work either. Keep in mind that when I sit in the Evo I generally feel comfortable with the driving position. Everything is right where it's supposed to be, everything feels comfortable and the Recaros are adjusted "just right".

Only thing I can think of is to take a long trip in the Evo, then one in the MR2 and compare notes on how messed up I feel afterwards, but I was kinda hoping someone had some alternative suggestions.

And before someone suggests going to see a quack - already done that, he confirmed what I already knew (it's not like I haven't been aware of this problem for about 30 years) and pointed out that there wasn't much they could do yet apart from giving me some pills for when things get too bad.

so, you're asking us which car fits you better?

only you can tell that.

i'm a fairly big guy (5'11", 245 pounds) and my 86 Camaro is probably the best car i've ever had for going on long trips.. everything just fits me and is right where it's supposed to be. and it got better when i upgraded to seats out of a 2000 Camaro this spring. i've had other cars with more comfortable seats, but none worked as well for me as that car... falling into and climbing out of it are kind of a pain sometimes, but overall it just "fits". the 74-77 Monte Carlos that i've had also "fit" me pretty well, as did the 97 and 98 Cavaliers, but the 04 Cavalier just sucked in every way despite being almost the exact same car as the other 2.. a few cars took a bit of getting used to before not being miserable after driving them- 94 Chrysler LHS and '01 Grand Prix GTP jump to mind- but i found them to be awesome once i adapted to them.

novaderrik wrote: so, you're asking us which car fits you better? only you can tell that.

That I know - I was wondering if anybody had some ideas to help me figure out if there is something there or if it's just a coincidence. I've driven the Evo for a bit over 10k miles by now so I should have the seat position and all that perfect right now (and it mostly is), so I don't think it's a matter of getting used to the car. I don't take it on long trips much though, most trips are in the 50-60 mile range and this issue mainly seems to be connected to longer trips.

Owning an sw20 and having been in evos and similar cars, my only thought is that the seat usually slides a bit farther back on coupes than sedans because of the hardpoints. At first, the slightly shorter distance in seat travel does not really bother me. However after extended periods it killed my knees.

In reply to sanman:

Actually, I can get the seat in the Evo far enough back with travel to spare (the limiting factor is actually that the steering wheel position is only height adjustable as it doesn't telescope), but one thing I just remembered when I read your post is that the seat in the MR2 is adjustable for height and rake (well, a little bit). The one in the Evo isn't adjustable for either, although I guess I can make a couple of shims to go under the back mount.

And the rake/angle of the seating surface as opposed to the seat back was the exact problem I had in the Me-Otter.

Crud.

Perhaps it's just the prolonged sitting? Last trip I took from Seattle to San Fran I made a point to stop every three hours and walk format least 20 minutes around the rest stops. I looked funny, but my 45 yr old body felt MUCH better. Gotta lube the joints!

Keep testing cars. See if the dealer will let you keep them for weekend or over a Sunday. go rent various cars.

4Msfam wrote: Perhaps it's just the prolonged sitting? Last trip I took from Seattle to San Fran I made a point to stop every three hours and walk format least 20 minutes around the rest stops. I looked funny, but my 45 yr old body felt MUCH better. Gotta lube the joints!

This ^^^

I am 47 now and not in the best of shape. A long stint at the wheel has me getting out of the car looking 77, not 47. I am 6'4" and built like a football player.

Get out and move around a bit at gas stops etc. Stop and get a coffee and don't go through the drive thru.

Do you have a wallet in your back pocket? I can give myself terrible back pain by sitting crooked on one for too long.

That's all I got.

GPS has a good point.

Also where are your arms? Can you rest your elbows while you drive? Can you shift about andload your spine just a few degrees differently on occasion?

A seat that holds you in place really well for hard/spirited driving is going to be torture for long periods of immobility. Think about a few random things here: humans weren't designed to sit still for long periods, we were built to walk....a lot

Parapalegics need to do "pressure relief" moves and lifts every hour or more frequently because their body can't do those little shifts automatically the way we usually do (think about how much moving around you do at the movies but how rough flying is due to the smaller and more cramped seat)

The constant low level vibration of a moving car is also bad, it contributes to squeezing the juices out of your joints and the only relief is to move around more.

And with that garbled bit of quasi advice /information I became a halfdork. Woohoo

In reply to KyAllroad:

Well, it was a suitably dorky post .

Regarding shifting about, not much, if any scope to move around and/or change the seating position. I can't really move the seat back or forward because it has to be in one position to make it mostly comfortable for my knees. Only adjustment I have is the angle of the seat back, but that has to be very upright because otherwise reaching the steering wheel is, err, a stretch. I can just about get my wrist on the top of the steering wheel in the current seating position and don't really have an option to lean back further. So to misuse your analogy, I seem to be flying cattle class when I drive the Evo. Guess I need to check if anybody has figured out a way to move the steering wheel and paddle shifters closer to the seat. I kinda doubt that because you'd think Mitsu would have figured out a way to do that by now, given how many reviewers complained about that.

Regarding the prolonged sitting, I can do trips from here to the Bay Area (which is about 4-5h) with maybe a fuel stop, then walk around there and drive back in other cars. It seems to be mostly the Evo that has me so knackered after such a trip that I'm still aching the next morning. Heck, I've done a trip from here to Laguna Seca (which is 6+ hours) with a single dinner and fuel stop in a Miata with racing seats and didn't feel like something the dog threw up the following day.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Do you have a wallet in your back pocket? I can give myself terrible back pain by sitting crooked on one for too long.

Wallet is either in my backpack or in the console. I can't even drive to the shops sitting on my wallet, and that's not because it's that fat. It isn't.

NGTD wrote:

4Msfam wrote: Perhaps it's just the prolonged sitting? Last trip I took from Seattle to San Fran I made a point to stop every three hours and walk format least 20 minutes around the rest stops. I looked funny, but my 45 yr old body felt MUCH better. Gotta lube the joints!

This ^^^ I am 47 now and not in the best of shape. A long stint at the wheel has me getting out of the car looking 77, not 47. I am 6'4" and built like a football player. Get out and move around a bit at gas stops etc. Stop and get a coffee and don't go through the drive thru.

That's usually what I end up doing. Well, apart from the coffee, I prefer ice tea or water while driving.

On the way back from subrew's place I had to stop twice in the first couple of hours, first about 1/2h in to get gas so I stretched a bit, walked around a little and got something to drink to stay properly hydrated, the next time about an hour later because I was getting so uncomfortable that I had to stop and get out of the car for a little while. That's unusual, because with most of our cars including the CRX I can drive for at least three hours without having to stop if I remembered to fill up first.

My pain in a car comes from one thing. Having my legs unsupported.

I ALWAYS tilt the front of the seat up as high as it will go and make sure my legs make good contact with seat for its entire length.

If I don't, I get the same sort of symptoms you describe.

I would try putting a folded towel on the front edge of the seat and go on a drive like that. Your legs should be fully supported from your butt to as far as the seat extends.

Good Luck!

Rob R.

Some of it may come from seat time. Sounds like you've spent a lot of time in the Evo. Your body adjusts and gets used to sitting in that particular seat, and the seat cushions conform a bit to your body. I've got joint issues too and have experienced things similar to what you describe. I very nearly sold my NC Miata within a few weeks of buying it due to being in terrible pain after 45 minutes in the car. Didn't matter how I adjusted everything, it just hurt. But I really liked the car and didn't want to sell it, so I stuck it out a bit longer and the pain went away. I never grew to love the seats, I still think they suck, but I became very used to them and had no pain at all even after 2 hours.

One time we rented a Lincoln Continental. It had infinitely adjustable seats, pedals, and steering, and at no time during a two week trip could I get comfortable. I never did figure it out and was left very unimpressed with what was supposed to be their top of the line car.

wvumtnbkr wrote: My pain in a car comes from one thing. Having my legs unsupported... I ALWAYS tilt the front of the seat up as high as it will go and make sure my legs make good contact with seat for its entire length...

Interesting... I'm the opposite. If the seat is pushing into the back of my legs above the knees it cuts off blood and/or pinches nerves. I adjust my seats so they... don't.

In my experience, people ALWAYS sit too high and erect when they first sit in a car. later on they slouch down and what appeared to be insufficient head room is now fine.

You need some seat time to get adjusted. If you can't adjust after an hour or two, that probably means you have a problem and need to look at changing something.

I had an old 65 Jensen with seats calculated to cripple a normal person - but when I took it on long trips, I accommodated after a few hours and could manage quite well.

Other ergonomic issues like badly placed switches depend on how fussy you are, Almost no cars get it as I'd have designed it.

BoxheadTim wrote: This afternoon my wife pointed out that the trips to look at the two FVs had one thing in common - I was driving the Evo. A few weeks back I looked at a 911 in the Bay Area and had taken the MR2. The trip to Marin county is longer than to subrew's place, yet I didn't feel like I had been waltzing with a Grizzly after I got back home. So, how the heck do I find out if the issue are the ergonomics in the Evo rather than the cars I was looking at? It's got "shades of Miata" written all over it again - remember I had to sell that because I couldn't make the ergonomics work either. Keep in mind that when I sit in the Evo I generally feel comfortable with the driving position. Everything is right where it's supposed to be, everything feels comfortable and the Recaros are adjusted "just right".

My VW feels like it has a great driving position, feels a lot like an older 911 actually except the pedals hinge at the wrong end and the ignition is on the wrong side. However I get pretty bad knee/hip pain after long drives, I think because I am sitting on my butt and thighs. Putting my weight on the meat in my legs pushes up against my hip joints funny. (My knees just suck regardless)

My RX-7 has an atrocious driving position, kind of a half-fetal hammock position. I can drive it for 16 hours and my joints feel fine, because they aren't being stressed the same way. My weight is on my sit bones and my back so my hips remain unstressed, and I can drive with my ankles instead of my knees because with my legs splayed out, I can angle my ankles sideways enough to reach the pedals that were designed for some Japanese guy with size 5 shoes instead of size 12.

What exactly hurts? Is it all your joints, just legs,knees,hips or upper body as well. Back pain,neck pain shoulders etc... Some things seem to point to seat issues but others to ergonomics beyond the seat. Lumbar and hip/thigh bolstering makes the biggest difference for me for comfort. Consider either using a towel as suggested or various pads,foam or even better memory foam or something inflatable (insert sex doll joke here) so you can start with little change and inflate it more for different support and place various thickness pads in the lumbar region and move it higher or lower on the seat to see how that helps or hurts. The knee pad under your legs may help or you may be better with pad(s) that support your legs from splaying. This often effects me with sciatic nerve pain even when I don't get it otherwise. Depending on seat slider,how the seat is mounted to the floor and/or slider maybe you can swap seats between one in a car you do well in and the Evo. Even temporarily it may help determine the problem and a solution.

Some newer cars put the dead pedal inward for better crash results in relation to ankle injuries. Some of these are weirdly too high or too far inward towards the center of the car or don't allow me to slightly splay my toes outward some. These often make for uncomfortable feeling fairly soon and bad on longer sits. Consider adding a piece of wood to raise it or removing the pad or the dead pedal all together to see what the effect is on comfort.

McMaster-Carr and others sell various closed and open cell foam densities and thicknesses that may help with adjusting your position and support. I used some for the console to right knee/upper calf area on my 99 Miata and it made for much less tenderness on trips and on track. I have done similarly with regular knee pad on my left leg for trackdays/autocross when the door panel has something protruding that my left knee or leg keeps banging into.

Lastly consider setting a video camera pointing at you in cars you do well in and the Evo and take a longer trip. It may help show how you are initially positioned and how your squirm or change position as the trip progresses.

Jackie Stewart wrote quite a bit about ergonomics,driver positioning and comfort in his book. He thought it made a difference is lap times and comfort. Good luck

kb58 wrote:

wvumtnbkr wrote: My pain in a car comes from one thing. Having my legs unsupported... I ALWAYS tilt the front of the seat up as high as it will go and make sure my legs make good contact with seat for its entire length...

Interesting... I'm the opposite. If the seat is pushing into the back of my legs above the knees it cuts off blood and/or pinches nerves. I adjust my seats so they... don't.

I understand what you are saying. I guess I should add that my feet are then able to comfortably reach the pedals and pivot my ankles to reach the pedals properly. Not all of my weight is on my butt and my heels.

I guess I like more of an "F1" stye driving position.

Thanks everybody for your input, I really appreciate that.

I have fairly little choice in the seating position in the car due to the steering wheel only being height adjustable but not adjustable for reach. I basically have to put the seat fairly far back to get both enough support under the knees (from the front of the seats) and the right angle for the knee so I'm able to tap dance around the (two) pedals. If I put the seat in that position I have to sit bolt upright just to be able to reach the steering wheel and turn it halfway in comfort.

The cars I'm more comfortable in tend to have the steering wheel closer to the driver so I have a chance of playing with the angle of the seat back while still maintaining the right sort of distance to the pedals. In the case of the Evo, that's not possible.

Regarding the the "getting to used to it over time", I've got close to 11k on the car and owned it for 14 months. Obviously the seat is more conforming to my butt now, but there had been times earlier in the year when I grabbed the CRX because my knees were getting too painful when driving the Evo.

As to what hurts, it's usually starting with knees, then shoulders, elbows and wrists. Oddly enough it's mostly the joins that hurt and not so much the muscles from added tension.

not really helpful... but I have long legs for my height (which is 6'4ish)... was looking at a 2nd gen prius for the family and after a test drive it was ruled out... even with the seat all the way back and reclined more than I like my knee hit the sifter and I had some serious shin pain from the way I had to flex my ankle to hit the throttle... the 3rd gen I can drive a lot more comfortably thanks to a few changes in the design...

wish cars had more adjustment :-/

FWIW, one time I got to drive a buddy's shifter kart. When I first got in I catagorically stated that "no way in hell do I fit this seat." Then, while pushed against it, I relaxed and sort of popped into it. It literally felt like it was vacuum-formed around me, which was a good thing since it was the only thing holding me in around the corners. The point is, sometimes seats which seem terrible at first work great. I got out of the kart feeling surprisingly fine.

The steering wheel is always a problem when I drive long distances. I usually only steer with my left hand holding the 7 o’clock position with my arm on the arm rest. This allows a good position for my back but it only works on cars with the door arm rest in the right place. So far SN-95 mustangs fit best.

I sometimes have back problems and when it flairs up I have to adjust the seat completely differently than when my back is fine. I wear a back brace on long trips to guard against it making my back go out.

If you can forego the airbag, an aftermarket steering wheel and a spacer would solve your wheel position problem. I did that with several cars in the time before airbags to get the driving position I wanted.