How does 426hp...

In reply to z31maniac:

But holy E36 M3 does the top end hit hard on the Coyote motor, even in a giant lawyer truck, its advised to put the headrests up and forward when you punch it and it drops a gear or three.

Storz wrote:

Cotton wrote: All you guys harping on weight as to why it isn't fast need to look at some numbers. Since when is 4.6 seconds, 13 second flat 1/4, and 160 mph top speed not fast? It may not "feel fast" but it is.

No doubt they are fast, go drive one and let me know if you think it feels fast, connected and visceral.

I have driven one and I agree with you that is doesn't feel as fast as it actually is. My post was in response to all the posts basically saying its fat so it isn't fast, which just isn't the case. Hell my bug feels insanely fast at 60 but it's actually a slug. Some new cars are just too good at being fast.

In reply to Kenny_McCormic:

I am a Ford guy

I rented an F250, 2014 quad cab, long bed, a couple of weeks ago, it was capable and towed great, but it was only adequate power wise IMHO

But I own a few V8s so I might be spoiled

In reply to aussiesmg:

This was a early production half ton 2wd, cab and a half short bed IIRC, probably a bit lighter. And it was a M plated truck from the engineering department, so who knows if it was the final production tune and such.

Did you red line it? Can you drive a stick? . Joking of course, but a flat torque curve will have that effect in addition to the weight. The one I drove felt fast to all the cars I passed.

espz28 wrote: Did you red line it? Can you drive a stick? . Joking of course, but a flat torque curve will have that effect in addition to the weight. The one I drove felt fast to all the cars I passed.

Haha yes and yes :)

I'm thinking about putting my 370z up for sale. It is slower than the camaro for sure but it feels fast and grips like crazy. You should know this since you have already driven it. Haha.

I have driven a 2011 mustang and a 2011 Corvette and I was surprised at how good the mustang was. Not as fast as the corvette and not as much grip, but for the money it was a blast. The 412 hp it had definitely made it "feel" fast. Only downside is that it was an auto. The corvette was amazing though.

rhgore wrote: I'm thinking about putting my 370z up for sale. It is slower than the camaro for sure but it feels fast and grips like crazy. You should know this since you have already driven it. Haha.

Need a backseat ;)

z31maniac wrote: I never thought the Coyote felt "down" on torque. I think it's more like the S2000, the top end hit is just so hard that by comparison the low-end feels lackluster.

Well, we're mixing subjective concepts here which isn't helping, but I once built a car for less than $2000 that put down 'only' 320wtq. A stock coyote mustang puts down ~370wtq, but weighs 68% (!!!) more. A 1300lb difference. The 5.0 stang doesn't feel "down" on torque but at no point does it feel "HOLY E36 M3" like the relatively slow POS dodge i built. It's all subjective and just has to do with what your idea of 'good', 'strong', 'fast', 'torquey', etc means. Buncha lines in the sand. But clearly i am not alone in saying some current muscle machines are lacking in drama.

Put an exhaust on the coyote and it sure feels a lot faster.

I got one of those Penske Hertz GT specials as a rental for a week and man It felt fast and sounded fast. Yeah it didn't rip your head off like a 455 olds at 1500 RPMs but make no mistake, you punch it and man it goes!

Storz wrote: What are some newer (08+ or so) engaging cars to drive? I like very visceral, connected feeling cars.

I've only had one new performance car (WRX), and there was no way I was going to start throwing parts at a car I didn't expect to own to the end of its warranty, but I kept wondering how much more visceral and connected it would feel if I just did, say, urethane bushings, and get all the compliance out of the steering linkage (guessing rack mounts and probably some in-line column coupler are softer than necessary).

For a DD, I'm not going to gut one, or go crazy with lightening, but how much more like an older, more mechanical/direct/visceral car does a new car feel if you undo some of the tactile insulation?

I haven't driven a Camaro newer than 1998, any Mustang newer than 1993 or a Corvette of any vintage. But the LS3 in a Miata doesn't feel as unhinged as you might think, even at 2500 lbs or so. It's just got a big flat torque curve. Oh, it's fast. But it's not the "ohgodimgonnadie" experience you might expect. Then you shift into 4th after redlining 3rd gear and it just smacks you back into the seat again and you think "oh, hang on, there's some power here". I think it's just a characteristic of the engine.

The ASA cam does wake it up, though. It adds a sharp edge to the throttle response that makes all the difference. I've only driven that in relatively light cars, but it might make a Camaro feel pretty good.

Not to hijack the thread but where did you find to rent on? I have looked around in the past for places I could rent a newish 3/4 ton truck to tow a toy hauler to the track a few times a year and could not find any in my part of the state.

Marty

Vigo wrote: Well, we're mixing subjective concepts here which isn't helping, but I once built a car for less than $2000 that put down 'only' 320wtq. A stock coyote mustang puts down ~370wtq, but weighs 68% (!!!) more. A 1300lb difference. The 5.0 stang doesn't feel "down" on torque but at no point does it feel "HOLY E36 M3" like the relatively slow POS dodge i built.

Power delivery. You can't compare a modern mid-displacement variable timing DOHC engine to a turbo engine put together on a budget.

The modern engines are tuned so that they DON'T feel fast, they're smooth and seamless power delivery.

Marty wrote: Not to hijack the thread but where did you find to rent on? I have looked around in the past for places I could rent a newish 3/4 ton truck to tow a toy hauler to the track a few times a year and could not find any in my part of the state. Marty

Enterprise Commercial, I have rented three times, never had a truck over 3000K, all quad cab, 2 were long bed, all have hitches

I had the same feeling when I test drove a new G8 GT several years ago. I was expecting more with 400 horses.

I haven't driven the V8 Camaro but have driven a V6 6 speed in anger and I like it a lot. I can't imagine the V8 would disappoint me.

Vigo wrote:

z31maniac wrote: I never thought the Coyote felt "down" on torque. I think it's more like the S2000, the top end hit is just so hard that by comparison the low-end feels lackluster.

Well, we're mixing subjective concepts here which isn't helping, but I once built a car for less than $2000 that put down 'only' 320wtq. A stock coyote mustang puts down ~370wtq, but weighs 68% (!!!) more. A 1300lb difference. The 5.0 stang doesn't feel "down" on torque but at no point does it feel "HOLY E36 M3" like the relatively slow POS dodge i built. It's all subjective and just has to do with what your idea of 'good', 'strong', 'fast', 'torquey', etc means. Buncha lines in the sand. But clearly i am not alone in saying some current muscle machines are lacking in drama.

Before I got back into cars I was a sportbike guy. So really none of the cars we are talking about are "fast."

But lacking drama? My GT would still spin into 3rd and scratch 4th at 100mph...........how much more "drama" do you want?

I think there are multiple factors. The cars are definitely fast, but not as fast as most of us think they "should" be for that kind of power. There is a lot more weight to go with that power, it's not like adding 100+ HP to a 90's car. My old Eagle Talon put up similar numbers with less then 3/4 of the power. The gearing and flat torque curve also contribute to the feel. I had a friend with a supercharged Mustang that ran mid 12's. He drove my mildly modded Eclipse and swore that it was a lot faster then his Mustang. It was a high 13 second car, not even close to the Mustang. But it had a slightly bigger then stock turbo that hit hard and pulled to redline. The hit of the turbo would suprise an unfamiliar driver, and the car felt faster, just like and car feels faster from the passenger seat. The short gearing also made it move through the rev range quicker, making it feel faster. I thought he was crazy until I got the chance to drive a new Shelby GT500 and was suprised how tame the car felt- until I looked at the speedometer.

But lacking drama? My GT would still spin into 3rd and scratch 4th at 100mph...........how much more "drama" do you want?

Like i say, subjective terms. Hard to quantify. But clearly there are several people in this thread who have had the same feelings as me, including the post right above me.

Interesting thread.

What are we after, when we're not getting paid to cross a finish line first?

My 200-ish hp E30 felt pretty fast to me. I enjoyed it significantly more than my ~265hp WRX. They probably had similar hp/lb.

Cotton wrote: All you guys harping on weight as to why it isn't fast need to look at some numbers. Since when is 4.6 seconds, 13 second flat 1/4, and 160 mph top speed not fast? It may not "feel fast" but it is.

I don't consider that fast for a modern car at all.

In fact, isn't that about the same quarter mile times muscle cars were running on their Polyglas tires back in the 1960's?

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/general/musclecars-50fast.shtml

bwh998 wrote: In fact, isn't that about the same quarter mile times muscle cars were running on their Polyglas tires back in the 1960's?

Generally 14 second range.

The thing with magazine tests back then is that they weren't afraid to bolt slicks on and tweak the carb and ignition timing to get good numbers. That's pretty cool and all, since that's something a lot of people would do anyway so it's representative of what people really wanted to know, but looking back at it we need to see what we're really looking at.

I only skimmed the first dozen or so entries on that list, and what I see are a lot of very low production, expensive cars (they made 69 ZL1s and the engine option cost more than the rest of the car did), many of which didn't come with a warranty (Hemi), and many others of which the dealers flat would not sell because they didn't want to warranty them.

z31maniac wrote:

Vigo wrote:

z31maniac wrote: I never thought the Coyote felt "down" on torque. I think it's more like the S2000, the top end hit is just so hard that by comparison the low-end feels lackluster.

Well, we're mixing subjective concepts here which isn't helping, but I once built a car for less than $2000 that put down 'only' 320wtq. A stock coyote mustang puts down ~370wtq, but weighs 68% (!!!) more. A 1300lb difference. The 5.0 stang doesn't feel "down" on torque but at no point does it feel "HOLY E36 M3" like the relatively slow POS dodge i built. It's all subjective and just has to do with what your idea of 'good', 'strong', 'fast', 'torquey', etc means. Buncha lines in the sand. But clearly i am not alone in saying some current muscle machines are lacking in drama.

Before I got back into cars I was a sportbike guy. So really none of the cars we are talking about are "fast." But lacking drama? My GT would still spin into 3rd and scratch 4th at 100mph...........how much more "drama" do you want?

I missed your comment first time through this thread, but you bring up a good point. My first "car" was a 1999 Yamaha R1, and I think it pretty much ruined me on what is fast and whats not.

Vigo wrote: Well, we're mixing subjective concepts here which isn't helping, but I once built a car for less than $2000 that put down 'only' 320wtq. A stock coyote mustang puts down ~370wtq, but weighs 68% (!!!) more. A 1300lb difference. The 5.0 stang doesn't feel "down" on torque but at no point does it feel "HOLY E36 M3" like the relatively slow POS dodge i built. It's all subjective and just has to do with what your idea of 'good', 'strong', 'fast', 'torquey', etc means. Buncha lines in the sand. But clearly i am not alone in saying some current muscle machines are lacking in drama.

I drove the FD for the first time since October recently. It is easily 100hp down on my new-to-me GTO and even further down on tq, but it weighs 1000 lbs less. Holy !@#$ did it feel fast and exciting after driving the bgoat which, as you say, lacks any kind of drama. I'm not sure which one is faster/quicker in a straight line, but if you want something connected to the road that feels fast and makes it seem like you're actually participating in the driving experience the choice is clear.