In reply to Knurled:
5th one down, 70 Chevelle SS, That's not a low production car was it? The reason I ask about it is because I remember driving my uncles completely stock, low mile 70 model SS about a decade ago, and it was every bit of a low 13 second car.
bwh998 wrote: In reply to Knurled: 5th one down, 70 Chevelle SS, That's not a low production car was it? The reason I ask about it is because I remember driving my uncles completely stock, low mile 70 model SS about a decade ago, and it was every bit of a low 13 second car.
Which SS? The SS could be almost any displacement, and there were two different SS454s - the common LS-5, and the LS-6. The LS-6 was the rare high compression, square port powermaker.
In reply to Knurled:
1970 LS6...
Rufledt wrote:Vigo wrote: Well, smooth and quiet a 2001 certainly is not.Nor is the driving position optimal, the steering feel very great, or the leather high grade.
The clutch....ugh the clutch was atrocious on those older mustangs. I almost had myself talked into buying a terminator until I was having to do leg presses everytime I wanted to shift.
Vigo wrote:But lacking drama? My GT would still spin into 3rd and scratch 4th at 100mph...........how much more "drama" do you want?Like i say, subjective terms. Hard to quantify. But clearly there are several people in this thread who have had the same feelings as me, including the post right above me.
I think all this thread proves is that a large portion of participants on this board who will literally complain about anything.
bwh998 wrote: In reply to Knurled: 5th one down, 70 Chevelle SS, That's not a low production car was it? The reason I ask about it is because I remember driving my uncles completely stock, low mile 70 model SS about a decade ago, and it was every bit of a low 13 second car.
Funny that's the car you mention. I currently own a stock 71 Chevelle 454 ss and, while it may be a 13 second car optioned out with the right gears etc, It sure as hell won't hit 160.
Huh. The rental SS must have had some kind of High-Performance package. Felt fast as E36 M3 launching it over those big smooth speedbumps at 80+ mph...and doing doughnuts behind Publix at 3AM.
Keith Tanner wrote: I haven't driven a Camaro newer than 1998, any Mustang newer than 1993 or a Corvette of any vintage. But the LS3 in a Miata doesn't feel as unhinged as you might think, even at 2500 lbs or so. It's just got a big flat torque curve. Oh, it's fast. But it's not the "ohgodimgonnadie" experience you might expect. Then you shift into 4th after redlining 3rd gear and it just smacks you back into the seat again and you think "oh, hang on, there's some power here". I think it's just a characteristic of the engine. The ASA cam does wake it up, though. It adds a sharp edge to the throttle response that makes all the difference. I've only driven that in relatively light cars, but it might make a Camaro feel pretty good.
I'm with Keith, like I said in the thread about ls/mx5s the flat torque curve of the ls motors make them deceivingly fast and tractable. Feels slow till it's too late to slow down for the corner.
I think part of the issue with the SS feeling fast is the weight (3894lbs) and the gearing (3.45)
I prefer the mustang when talking about current pony cars. I'm really excited about the next generation of these cars. They are sure to be performers.
Storz wrote: What are some newer (08+ or so) engaging cars to drive? I like very visceral, connected feeling cars. My dad had a 96 LT4 Corvette back in 96 and it was a blast to drive. It's shortcomings in the chassis combined with big power output made it feel like you were driving a true sports car. My 87 Corvette and 91 Miata were much the same.
Honestly 06-11 Honda Civic Si Sedan. Laugh all you want; but, you get a whole 197hp 140 torques in a cheap econobox. Very engaging car to drive, the K20 makes awesome noises and pushes to 8100 revs and handles great. I loved mine, was a great autox/track car. Beat the living piss out of it with no issues for the few years I had it.
And as far as all of you complaining about the torque curve there is a pretty simple solution to swap. And if you can't see the image its a shaft. I don't like either the V6 or V8 variants of the new Camaro. Not because of how fast they feel but because of how bloated the car feels, I just felt like I was driving a lowered truck. The 12+ Mustangs at least feel a bit nimble and agile in basic driving function. And you can always swap an LS or new LT into a mustang if you really want to go fast.
I imagine a lot of the subjective issues are in the PCM. The same sensations that say "fast" to your brain are also the same things that hurt transmissions and break traction and cause wheel hop, so in the interest of drivetrain preservation and maintaining traction the engines are tuned to come on "soft".
I haven't driven a Coyote engined Mustang with or without the Track Key, but people who have report that it's a completely different animal, just by changing the PCM calibration.
Coilovers and harder engine/trans mounts certainly help makes a car more interesting.
"Feeling" fast and going fast are two completely different things.
I've driven all sorts of cars, as many of you have. On the newer muscle car side, a friend of mine has a 2011 Mustang GT. I've driven it bone stock and after he swapped on a cat-back exhaust. On both occasions, it stood out as one of the most fun cars I've ever driven, and yes, it "felt" fast. For a big land missile, it handled well and I felt like I was in complete control the entire time. This car is an absolute blast to drive.
On the contrary, a few months ago, I drove a 1990 Honda Civic sedan with an automatic. It was your basic "old lady car". Going 50mph in that car "felt" fast. I felt like the thing was doing Warp 9.7! But it was not fast in actuality. But it was fun to drive.
My dad's 2008 Toyota Tundra with the 381hp 5.7L DOHC V8 is fast. It is about as fast as my old 2002 WRX. Seriously, the thing HAULS. Since it's the size of the Queen Mary, it does not "Feel" as fast. Is it fun to drive? Not really, but it does what it is supposed to do very well.
Even my Mazda 3 "feels" fast. It's not exactly slow, and it handles very well for what it is, but it's nowhere near as fast as my old WRX's. my Trans Am, or my friend's Mustang. But if you take it on the highway and go 80mph in it, you will know. And it is fun to drive.
And I still want a new Charger or Challenger R/T. 
Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to z31maniac: But holy E36 M3 does the top end hit hard on the Coyote motor, even in a giant lawyer truck, its advised to put the headrests up and forward when you punch it and it drops a gear or three.
Most newer cars with large motors have torque management at lower RPMs. This limits timing advance to make the cars easier to drive on the street for the average idiot American.
Aftermarket tunes eliminate this "feature."
Example: The Ford Racing tune on my Coyote Mustang added a peak of ~10 torques at 5,000 RPM or so...
And 65 torques at 1,500 RPM by eliminating torque management. Want to see what a Mustang REALLY feels like? Take a ride in mine.
Sky_Render wrote: Most newer cars with large motors have torque management at lower RPMs. This limits timing advance to make the cars easier to drive on the street for the average idiot American.
Why limit with timing advance? That hurts fuel economy and emissions. Better to limit power with throttle opening and cam timing.
WE control the horizontal, WE control the vertical.
Timing advance... that's what you did back in the stone age when you didn't have full control of the engine!
My 05 GT with 325 horses felt a good bit faster than a friend's stock '12 with 412 horses. Even he commented that mine felt a lot better after riding in mine and driving his. The difference? Mine has an aftermarket tune that eliminates all the throttle lag and softening. It really makes it a different car, much sharper, and I would sell it before I was forced to drive it with the factory tune now. I would imagine the same is true for the Coyotes and Camaros.
Sky_Render wrote:Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to z31maniac: But holy E36 M3 does the top end hit hard on the Coyote motor, even in a giant lawyer truck, its advised to put the headrests up and forward when you punch it and it drops a gear or three.Most newer cars with large motors have torque management at lower RPMs. This limits timing advance to make the cars easier to drive on the street for the average idiot American. Aftermarket tunes eliminate this "feature." Example: The Ford Racing tune on my Coyote Mustang added a peak of ~10 torques at 5,000 RPM or so... And 65 torques at 1,500 RPM by eliminating torque management. Want to see what a Mustang REALLY feels like? Take a ride in mine.
Would love to, where you located :)
z31maniac wrote:Vigo wrote:I think all this thread proves is that a large portion of participants on this board who will literally complain about anything.But lacking drama? My GT would still spin into 3rd and scratch 4th at 100mph...........how much more "drama" do you want?Like i say, subjective terms. Hard to quantify. But clearly there are several people in this thread who have had the same feelings as me, including the post right above me.
Welcome to the Internet. It is a place where you can yell at faceless people without the worry of getting a boot in the face.
On topic- I have gotten to the point where I think most modern cars are too good at what they do to have much real fun. Speed is subjective because a new Honda Odyssey will run away from a ton of older sports cars. That doesn't make it as fun to drive as an MG. Most modern cars will also out handle a lot of older sports cars, but the same thing.
I am lucky enough to not have to choose 1 car so I guess I don't need a Swiss army car.
Keith Tanner wrote: I think it's just a characteristic of the engine.
This is why I want the 5.6L nissan v8 in everything. That thing moves our 5500lb Titan with authority 
Knurled wrote:Sky_Render wrote: Most newer cars with large motors have torque management at lower RPMs. This limits timing advance to make the cars easier to drive on the street for the average idiot American.Why limit with timing advance? That hurts fuel economy and emissions. Better to limit power with throttle opening and cam timing. WE control the horizontal, WE control the vertical. Timing advance... that's what you did back in the stone age when you didn't have full control of the engine!
Well, I was simplifying things. Pushing the pedal down, since it's drive-by-wire, has no direct connection to the throttle opening. What you get is a "torque target," and the computer varies things such as A/F ratio, spark timing, cam timing, and throttle opening to reach your "torque target." You just don't get the full torque capabilities on the factory tune.
It certainly is perception. Funny, even spinning tires in 3rd and 4th doesn't really mean it feels fast, just that maybe it has a lot of torque and a lot of weight to push!
I have a supercharged miata with 250 to the wheels. It's a quick little thing but in no way does it feel "fast" to me. It can spin in the top of 2nd and sometimes parts of 3rd, but that's it. It's very much a precise scalpel that'll surprise most people, but a turbo'd miata of the same power and torque feels a bit quicker due to the way in which it delivers.
I test drove an SRT Challenger a few months ago and was really unimpressed. I was expecting the huge hp would make up for the barge feel, but it was surprisingly boring. Performance wise, I think my miata would be more or less equal in the acceleration, but the miata feels much more frantic. The frantic feel must be what really many modern cars lack.
Prime example: After taking my stripped out '79 Spitfire for its first shakedown run about 6 months ago, I had my 4 year old son sitting shotgun, and he asked me to see how fast it would go. I wound it out in 4th (no overdrive) gear and the little thing was screaming and shaking!!! I was sawing at the wheel and enjoying the intensity, and my son was howling he was so excited. I looked down at the speedo and noticed I had just hit 50 mph. My miata with 5X the hp can't even elicit that kind of excitement. Maybe I just felt closer to death?
-Hamid
Sky_Render wrote: Well, I was simplifying things. Pushing the pedal down, since it's drive-by-wire, has no direct connection to the throttle opening. What you get is a "torque target," and the computer varies things such as A/F ratio, spark timing, cam timing, and throttle opening to reach your "torque target." You just don't get the full torque capabilities on the factory tune.
Yah, they're mapped for expected torque output and the computer determines how much, say, the A/C compressor requires at a given high-side pressure and compensates automatically. I would imagine that the appropriate drivability effect that people are unhappy with is torque smoothing - it only allows a certain percentage of torque rise/millisecond. This is purely conjecture until I get to play deeper in the OEM controls, or ply the correct powertrain engineers with the appropriate beers 
I can't wait to get an Ecoboost in and just watch what the computer is doing while driving. Supposedly it is constantly varying the throttle position and such while driving even steady-state, trying to find the least-fuel part of the 3d (really, probably 4d/5d/6d?) torque map for a given engine load. Certainly the engines with VNT turbos ARE constantly shifting the VNT around whole driving to keep everything freed up since VNT sticking is a continual problem.
Engine controls are a lot more complex than a 2D spark curve and fuel map nowadays. It's daunting to think about with respect to tuning, but the possibilities are incredible.
In reply to AverageH:
This is why I like my Yugo, it feels scary fast with all the noise and drama, slow manual steering, chainsaw like powerband, and 145mm commercial tires, but then you redline 2nd to the shift light(mods are a monster tach and exhaust, thats it) and slam 3rd on some back road tight corner and look down and notice you're doing like 40mph. Car puts maybe 50-55hp to the wheels.
Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to AverageH: This is why I like my Yugo, it feels scary fast with all the noise and drama, slow manual steering, chainsaw like powerband, and 145mm commercial tires, but then you redline 2nd to the shift light(mods are a monster tach and exhaust, thats it) and slam 3rd on some back road tight corner and look down and notice you're doing like 40mph. Car puts maybe 50-55hp to the wheels.
Exactly! I never knew I'd enjoy my 50hp beater Triumph so much. There's nothing to it and it rattles and pops like crazy, but damn what a fun ride. Slow back-road bombers are the best!
-Hamid
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