DeadSkunk
DeadSkunk PowerDork
6/26/18 4:11 p.m.

I've been reading threads where people have used a GM LS4 in a RWD configuration by utilizing any transmission that has the GM metri V6 pattern. So, I believe the 2.2 S10s used that pattern. Would the 5 speed manual take 300 HP? Remember, this is for the Challenge and LS4s are cheap, light, cheap and so are the S10 transmissions.  

Edit: And ,yes, I'm aware of the whole issue with the starter.

MrChaos
MrChaos GRM+ Memberand Dork
6/26/18 6:51 p.m.

likely as much as the stock ls4 trans. so barely stock power.

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
6/26/18 9:16 p.m.

You should definitely verify what I'm about to say, because it is based off assumptions and fuzzy memories, but here goes

I assume you are talking about t5 trannies, the weak link in those (based off fuzzy memories) was a bearing where the output shaft slid into the input shaft. When it got some wear and you put the power to it it would allow the two shafts to deflect and that was how they failed. So if you are talking about that trans I would see if that bearing (it may not have been an actual bearing, just a set of rollers) fits in the budget, as well as the bearings at the front and rear of those shafts, and the pilot bearing/ bushing.  That should keep everything together. I wouldn't side step the clutch at 5k rpm with slicks either. Remember that trans was put behind roughly 125 hp/tq from the factory. It's not going to live a long happy life behind 300, but my guess is with the above mentioned freshening up it should survive the challenge ok if you don't shock load it too much.

 

Patrick
Patrick GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/26/18 9:17 p.m.

Have you checked pricing for a t5 from a 3.8 camaro?  

DeadSkunk
DeadSkunk PowerDork
6/26/18 9:19 p.m.

In reply to Patrick :

No, just asking questions as I find cheap stuff, and have a rough idea it fits.

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/26/18 9:32 p.m.

The 4 cylinder trans will probably not last very long at all.  They are only rated for something silly low like 195ft-lb because of their 4:1 first gear ratio.

 

Some people can make them live behind 5.0s (note: a much weaker engine than the LS4) and some people can break a crowbar in a sandbox.

weedburner
weedburner Reader
6/27/18 4:42 p.m.

It's usually overly aggressive clutch engagement or wheel hop that kills the T5 first, not the engine's raw power. 350 ft/lbs is well within the power handling capability of even the 4.03 1st gear T5, but you will need a proper clutch buffer to help control the rate of inertia energy release as the clutch pulls WOT engine rpm down.

Here's what controlled clutch slip can do to not only help you control inertia, but also help make the car quicker/faster-

Lets imagine launching WOT with no clutch slip at all, engine rpm with a dead hook on the starting line would equal "0". For simplicity, lets say a car has a constant acceleration rate in 1st gear and the potential to reach it's 1/2 shift point of 7000 rpm at about 2 seconds into the run. If starting line rpm equals "0", and rpm 2.0 seconds in equals 7000 and acceleration rate is constant, at 0.5 seconds engine rpm would be 1750, at 1 second in engine rpm would equal 3500, and at 1.5 seconds 5250 with the tires dead hooked and no clutch slip at all. Obviously we need some clutch slip to get off the line, as our engines make zero power at zero rpm.

Let's add some clutch slip and see what happens to power production. To a point the longer a clutch slips, the more time the car/engine has to gain speed/rpm before that clutch locks up, which in turn means engine rpm does not get dragged down/out of it's power range. Lets say a magical engine has a completely flat torque curve of 350 ftlbs from 1500 to 5500 rpm. 350 ft/lbs is well within the power handling capability of even the 4.03 ratio 1st gear T5. If the clutch only slips for 0.5 second after a WOT launch, engine rpm gets dragged down to 1750 and it's only making 116.6 hp at the low point of the bog. If the clutch were to slip for a full second, rpm only dips to 3500rpm which effectively doubles it's power production to 233.2 hp thru the low point of the bog. In the real world the difference would be even more dramatic, as it's pretty unlikely the engine would be making 350 ftlbs at 1750.

When it comes time to shift, the problem for the transmission then becomes the fact that the rotating assembly must almost instantly shed about half of it's stored inertia energy due to the ratio change. If that excess energy is dumped into the transmission all at once during a WOT shift, there's a good chance adding that extra energy added along side the 350 ftlbs the engine is already making will be enough to cause damage. Adding an engagement buffer makes it possible to spread that inevitable energy transfer over a longer time period, reducing it's peak to a level that's easier for the transmission to manage. Also because the car is gaining speed during those periods of controlled clutch slip, the overall amount of energy that must be dumped due to the ratio change is also reduced.

A proper clutch buffer makes it practical to choose a clutch with plenty of torque capacity for the application which adds durability, one that might otherwise grab too aggressively and could possibly kill the transmission, then allows "dialing in" longer clutch slip as needed to raise the bog rpm to increase power production without reducing that clutch's overall holding ability. 

Grant

Gearheadotaku
Gearheadotaku GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/28/18 11:22 a.m.

The 2.2 S-10 used the NV1500 5-speed which wasn't rated for much at all. The 4.3 V6 got the NV3500 in 1993 and newer.

As mentioned by someone else, the T5 from a V6 Camaro or Firebird would be the way to go. In a light car with a little care you should be fine. They are cheap at pick and pull. 96-02 is the sweet spot. Not sure about the 93-95 3.4 cars.

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