HOW much?? (Subaru content)

I was at a seminar today in Toronto, and one of the other students came in late because her 2000 Outback self-destructed on the 401 (our major highway). At first she thought it was the rad, but by the end of the day her mechanic, whom she trusts, was talking about a major engine rebuild/replacement, and the figure being tossed around was $8500. Even in $Cdn that seems excessive, by an order of magnitude. Comments? Suggestions? Advice? I'll see her again in class tomorrow (Friday), and I'm sure she'd take good news if anybody has any.

couldn't you just find an engine for a few hundred and toss it in?

Is she hot? PIITB? j/k. If she likes the car then a used engine would be the best bet.

Used engines with a 90+ day warranty will be less than a grand. I don't have a labor guide but I'm guessing it's something like an 8-10 hour job by the book, so that equates to less than $2k to put a used engine in at a shop. If she wants to do a rebuild it'll be a lot more expensive. If I were doing it, it'd cost closer to $500-1000 depending on the engine I used (free labor!). So yes, $8k is waaaay too much, even if you included a full rebuild, new clutch, new water pump, timing belt, etc. you're still not getting into the $8k range.

Bryce

2000 Outback - that's the Phase 1 2.5. Between my father and my friend's cars, I've seen three of those go bad in under 200,000 total km. Then one of the replacements tossed a head gasket.

I can see $8k, with a brand new engine installed by a dealer. Don't forget there's going to be close to $1k in tax on that. The first question to ask is, how good a replacement does she want? A factory long block with a Subaru-backed warranty is not the same as a junkyard pullout.

Thanks, everybody! Keep the great ideas coming!

Arent subies like legos? Can't you pretty much put any other subie motor in there? Sounds like its time for some boosted boxer goodness. She will say she doesn't need that much power, but she will thank you if it happens.

Is there a chance? If so, the other guys have it pretty much covered. If not, tell her the $8K is about right, and then offer her 900 bucks for it.

She probably poofed a head gasket or two. Either that, or blew the timing belt off. Either way, it ain't $8000 to put it right. It's about 8 hrs to R&I a Subaru engine, plust time to swap components around as needed. I see used engines on Ebay frequently for around $1000. Those are indeed the trouble prone quad cam engines known for HG failures. I don't know how difficult it would be to swap in a sohc engine from a slightly newer one. It can probably be done with some tweaking but you'd have to read up on it (try NASIOC's forum archives). $8000 is probably right around what it's worth.

For $8000 it had better be an STi swap ;P

A used engine for that should be in the $850-$1000 range, and if I were doing it, I'd go ahead and put new head gaskets on it while it's out. You can get the head gaskets for about $25 a piece, and it shouldn't take more than an hour to change them with the engine on a stand or work bench. That's cheap insurance.

Most of the 2.5 failures I've seen have involved the oiling system, not the head gaskets. One seized without lighting up the oil pressure light. So I can completely believe a new long block is in the cards.

Remember that we're not talking about a mechanic who's going to be scrounging up her own parts here. She's having a shop - probably a dealership - do the work. They're not going to want to put in a used engine or try to retrofit a SOHC engine, and if you think about it you can't really blame them.

Again, the question is how good she wants the car to be after the work. Junkyard engine of unknown history? Slightly worked over junkyard engine with new $25 (really?) head gaskets and a mechanic who works for sandwiches? New, warranteed factory long block?

around here those motors are bringing a lot more for good used ones. Like $1500 is a deal. $2000 is typical. A lot of failures I presume. I've changed 3 in 3 years.

I don't know who, in their right mind, would buy a brand new factory long block for a 2000 Outback. The whole car is barely worth half of the supposed $8k bill. Actually, I bet I could buy a running, driving 2000 Subie wagon on the used market for close to the price of a new factory 2.5 long block if I looked around enough. With a brand new long block and associated parts in the $8k bill, it would still be worth less than the $8k bill itself. I don't blame the shop for not wanting to put in a used engine, it's not worth the risk of an unhappy customer if the engine craps out in a while, since labor will be just as expensive as parts for a job that involved. I would hope that if she doesn't know anybody that can do the engine swap for her with a junkyard engine, that instead she just sells it as-is and spends money on another car instead of pissing away several thousand bucks on a car that isn't worth it. Heck, if she sold it for $1000-1500 as is (assuming it's in good shape otherwise) and bought another Subie wagon (preferably an earlier 2.2) for $2-3k she'd come out WAY ahead of the game. Might not be as convenient, but a hell of a lot more frugal.

Most of the 2.5 failures I've seen have involved the head gaskets. I'm not purposefully trying to contradict Keith's comment above, but I thought it would be worth adding another point of view. My family has had a few Subies, my parents currently have a 2.5 DOHC that actually had the head gaskets go, coincidentally enough. My old man is a mechanic and lives in Subie country, so he's seen his fair share of 2.5s come through the shop.

Bryce

I agree with the suggestion to ditch the forrester, and use the money that would have been spent on repairs to buy a 2.2 legacy of a similar vintage.

The local dealer here used to list a brand new longblock for the 2.5 for ~$2500 I believe (USD)... But I just checked and it's not listed on their site anymore. Hmm. 8k just seems like too much to put into a car that is worth about 7-8k.

Sounds like they really want to sell her a new car instead of fix the old one.

I would suggest towing it to another dealership or repair shop.

I know the engine has a reputation for blowing head gaskets. Here's my experience with them. Both were in 1997 Legacy GTs.

• my father's car. It came to us with 100,000 km (60k miles) and a new engine. I'm not sure of the story here, but we knew the previous owner and it wasn't abuse and it was a new short block at the very least. At 225,000 km or so (on the chassis), that engine blew a head gasket.

• my friend's car. As soon as it went out of warranty (105,000 km), the engine seized up due to oil starvation. Something to do with a bad casting of the oil passages, I believe. No oil light, just immediate rod knock followed by That Silence. Subaru, after some prodding, paid for parts and the owner paid for labor. The replacement engine had oiling problems right out of the box, so Subaru replaced it as well. That particular engine is still running.

There's going to be a difference between a 2000 Subaru with a warranteed brand new engine and one with 9 years of mileage on it. Not trying to say that dropping $8k on the car is the best idea, but she would come out of it with a better car than she went in.

It was just pointed out to me that this is a Phase 2, SOHC engine. Oops

Keith wrote: Again, the question is how good she wants the car to be after the work. Junkyard engine of unknown history? Slightly worked over junkyard engine with new $25 (really?) head gaskets and a mechanic who works for sandwiches? New, warranteed factory long block?

I'm not saying she should just drop the car and an engine off at some hillbilly's house. Around here, there are several reputable shops that install junkyard engines, and that engine goes for $850-$1000, but if she just took it to a shop and asked about having a used engine installed it would be more, since it will be marked up once by the mechanic, and possibly by the salvage yard he goes through if they don't have it in stock. The advantage to doing it like that is if it's no good, she still only has to pay labor once. So I'd say these are her two most viable scenarios:

1. Take it to a shop and tell them to put a used engine in it with new head gaskets. Mechanic will probably charge $600 for labor, $1500-$1750 for the engine, $150 for the head gaskets, and $100 for fluids, filter, etc. $2600 bill, worst case.

2. Find a used engine for $850-$1000, buy the head gaskets ($21.79 each from Rock Auto), take everything to a mechanic and tell him to put it together. $1750 bill, worst case.

The only problem with scenario #2, if the engine happens to be bad, it will be under warranty, but she will still will have to pay for the labor charges again and have to buy the head gaskets again.

She should just buy something else and sell me the car (assuming it's a 5 speed) for cheap. I've got a trailer and a tow vehicle and live 45 minutes away

She's getting ripped off. Get it back and throw a new engine in there yourself. There's nothing to it. All of the electronics are routed on the chassis so that they can really only reach the correct part of the engine (my biggest fear was always rerouting electronics). Unplug E36 M3, label it all, and unbolt it. Installation is the opposite of removal.

Damn, for $8500, you could pay someone to put an LS1 in there!

PIITB, then find a used engine and PIITC

Thanks again, everyone. Only on the GR board would someone suggest putting an LS1 in place of the Former Occupant! I guess I ought to be surprised nobody suggested either a P71 or a Miata as suitable new rides. The current status is that she's going to look for a newish used car, since the Outback (I found this out today) has 250,xxx km on it and seems to be pretty well done with its best days as a run-around-everywhere DD. MW, I'll ask if she's interested in selling (and if it's a 5-speed) & let you know tomorrow.