I get that it has a ton of performance thrown at it. But how far away is say a 458 from a track prepped version of that car? Or a modern base 911? Are they corner weighted from the factory? (Minus the driver)
I get that it has a ton of performance thrown at it. But how far away is say a 458 from a track prepped version of that car? Or a modern base 911? Are they corner weighted from the factory? (Minus the driver)
They're super duper!
I read a few years ago that the C6 Corvette street car was available with quite a lot more horsepower than the LeMans race car.
I wish I could remember the lap times, though. I'm pretty sure they were a definitive example of horsepower not being everything.
The difference between a base 458 and a track-prepped 458 is that the driver of the race car is probably wearing less Ferrari team wear than the owner of the base 458 at cars and coffee. 
Modern supercar design starts with an optimized suspension geometry and exotic drivetrain, then the chassis tub, subframes and core systems are designed around that, then everything else. It's a totally different engineering philosophy than taking a sedan, hatchback or crossover architecture then 'throwing a ton of performance' at it. That's why even though a Shelby or Hellcat or AMG might match the performance numbers of a modern Ferrari, the feel isn't the same.
But the cars you're asking about are already specialist vehicles. While a 458 Speciale truly is a more track-focused version of the Italia, the base 458 Italia is already a whole different animal than, say, an AMG SL65. Similarly, a modern base 911 has decades of racing tech transfer engineered into it. Even the design brief for the new Corvette was similarly free of the platform and packaging constraints that all other Chevy vehicles are engineered to.
Trackmouse wrote: I get that it has a ton of performance thrown at it. But how far away is say a 458 from a track prepped version of that car? Or a modern base 911? Are they corner weighted from the factory? (Minus the driver)
100% Stock gen IV Viper ACR with a ton of testing and driver time and tires does as 1.32.7 I think at Leguna Seca.
My semi track ready gen IV on slicks is in the 1.26.3-1.26.7 range and I have a full interior, stereo, AC and its still street legal with an instructor driving. IE mine, "not" in my hands, is faster then a P1 around LS.
I have heard of but never seen fully built ACR's almost 2.5 seconds a lap faster then mine are out there. But fully caged till with some street legality. Unrestricted "race" cars can be made incredibly fast if there are no rules. 6-8 seconds difference on a 1.30 track is a lifetime.
To tell you how slow I am. The fastest I have ever done at LS unrestricted is 1.33.7 which is a second slower then the factory can do and I have another 200hp, worlds better brakes and suspension and even stickier tires then OEM and even more Aero and cooling off the ACR-X, plus better gearing and LSD.
nderwater wrote: Similarly, a modern base 911 has decades of racing tech transfer engineered into it.
It also has some Camry DNA thrown in there. I drove my buddy's new 991 with PDK the other day, and it's docile as a kitten if you're just cruising around.
Supercar = you know it when you see it. So does everyone else.
Yeah that's why when two cars are "compared" on a track side-by-side (with two drivers), it might be entertaining but doesn't really answer which car is faster. As we all know - especially here - driver skill can make an enormous difference in lap time.
nderwater wrote: Modern supercar design starts with an optimized suspension geometry and exotic drivetrain, then the chassis tub, subframes and core systems are designed around that, then everything else. It's a totally different engineering philosophy than taking a sedan, hatchback or crossover architecture then 'throwing a ton of performance' at it. That's why even though a Shelby or Hellcat or AMG might match the performance numbers of a modern Ferrari, the *feel* isn't the same. But the cars you're asking about are already specialist vehicles. While a 458 Speciale truly is a more track-focused version of the Italia, the base 458 Italia is already a whole different animal than, say, an AMG SL65. Similarly, a modern base 911 has decades of racing tech transfer engineered into it. Even the design brief for the new Corvette was similarly free of the platform and packaging constraints that all other Chevy vehicles are engineered to.
You aren't kidding. I never did figure out what all the controls on the steering wheel of the 458 Italia did, let alone the ones on the console. It didn't really matter anyway, as I was certainly slower than the car regardless of what modes were selected.
here's a good break down of lap times at VIR (grand course not full so can't compare to UTCC
)
Not exactly a supercar, but I can tell you definitively my SCCA ITS prepped TR8 was a heck of a lot slower than any of the street prepped versions I have had over the years. Guess it all comes down to the class of racing and the amount of prep you are allowed to do in that class. Many of the supercar classes impose weight penalties and HP limitations to keep the playing field even.
Streetwiseguy wrote: I read a few years ago that the C6 Corvette street car was available with quite a lot more horsepower than the LeMans race car. I wish I could remember the lap times, though. I'm pretty sure they were a definitive example of horsepower not being everything.
This is mostly true of the sanctioned race classes for production based cars. The Saleen S7 I worked on in the European LeMans and FIAGT series (and all of the competing cars: Corvette, Aston-Marton, Lamborghini, etc) was mandated to about 550hp. The street versions at the time started at 750hp and went up to 1000hp. Granted I could make the S7 more comfortable to drive on the edge for 24 hours than the street car were capable of, but the basic vehicle was the same in every respect from chassis to nearly all bodywork.
Some straight head to head comparisons here for Ferrari's specifically on the Fiorano Circuit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiorano_Circuit
Ferrari 360 Modena 1'31.50 / Ferrari 360 GT2 1'15.00
Ferrari 458 Italia 1'25.00 / Ferrari 458 Challenge 1'16.50
johndej wrote: here's a good break down of lap times at VIR (grand course not full so can't compare to UTCC http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2015-results-historical-lap-times-and-more-feature
FYI, here are the 2016 results: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2016-results-historical-lap-times-and-more-feature
Well they're no Hypercar, that's for sure. 
To be a supercar, you have to at least fear it a little.
I've instructed for the Xtreme Xperience a couple of times so I've had the pleasure of driving some super cars on the track. The thing that impresses me the most about them is how civil they are for the performance levels they can achieve. I've driven faster race cars but none of those could be driven comfortably in traffic and you sure couldn't carry on a conversation at 130 MPH in one like you can in an Italia or a Lamborghini LP560-4.
Depends on the company - Porsche factory race cars are seam welded and get all sorts of neat bits the standard cars don't get.
Unless you consider the GT2/3/4 - those are basically race cars from the factory.
G_Body_Man wrote: To be a supercar, you have to at least fear it a little.
I actually think this might be a part of the answer. If it can't scare you, it isn't fast enough to be a super car. I also realize this doesn't answer the question listed. Here is some evidence to back up my statement.
2017 Camaro SS
4.1 sec 0-60
455 hp HP
165 mph Top Speed
1985 Ferrari Tessarossa
5.3 sec 0-60
390 hp HP
180 mph Top Speed
This is an obvious example of somewhat mundane DD-able muscle car vs. 80s super car. Hell, the F40 is just about equal to the Camaro in most things except top speed. That is bonkers but it doesn't make the Camaro a supercar.
Matt Farah and /Drive did a Cayman GT4 versus Cayman GT4 clubsport comparison a few months ago. That I'll have to dig up, this is the factory cayman 3.8L racer with PDK versus the vastly improved GT4 spec cayman with 3.8L, improved suspension components and manual.
In reply to singleslammer:
Even crazier is that a current V6 accord automatic is only .3 slower to 60 than the Ferrari. What a difference 30 years makes, especially when you think of the performance levels of the 1986 Honda Accord.
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