How to get a crack-smoking high price down to normal

So, I've been keeping an eye on THIS little gem

99 Jag XJR with 40k.  Nice ride.  Worth $6-7k, even with KBB's optimism.

It's listed as a dealership, but doesn't show up in their inventory.  I asked the seller about that and he said "private sale."

He listed it at $6000, but in the description he says $6000 down, finance $9000.  When I asked him how much for a cash deal, he said "I have to get $12,500."

It has been on FB since March 8th.  I worked VERY briefly at two dealerships 20 years ago.  I know in PA, if you have a used car in inventory for 30 days or more, you have to title it to someone, usually the dealership.  (basically, you have 30 days to sit on a signed title before the signature becomes invalid).

Help me decipher this scenario.  My first guess is that they took it on trade, gave too much for it hoping they could get a whopper deal, only to realize they aren't worth what they thought... so they title it to an employee to buy some time?  Don't date the title and shift it off to an employee's FB to remove liability?  Employee bought it from his own inventory hoping to score big only to enlist in the fail army?

Basically I need more leverage than normal since the guy is asking twice what it's worth and I'm a cheapskate who normally negotiates better than anyone I know.  I just don't know how to un-ass this guy from his crack-smoking price.

Sounds like he's using buy-here-pay-here dealer math.

That sounds like the sort of place stupid people buy cars.  Can you lease 22"wheels there?

Move on.

What on earth does $6,000 down, $9,000 finance mean? Looks like a scam or BHPH (same thing really).

I can make out the first three of the license plate; LFJ... which indicates a very recently-issued plate, and not a dealer plate.  LKE 3558 is the most recent plate issued as of July 30

LFG-9163 reported on Nov 9th 2019
LFM-4284 was reported as issued on Nov 2nd 2019
LFP-7229 on November 17, 2019
LHG-4386 on Feb 29th 2020
LHH-1011 on March 11, 2020

Given the multiple issuing entities that give plates in PA (and their widely varying volume of issuing), I would guess that LFJ was issued sometime around the end of 2019.

Dave M (Forum Supporter) said:

What on earth does $6,000 down, $9,000 finance mean? Looks like a scam or BHPH (same thing really).

It means the price is $15k with $6000 down.  So you finance $9k for 10 years and give the dealer an extra $1500 on the back door.

I want to be able to go to this guy and say, "look, I know you're involved in [insert potentially legal but shady dealership ploy] and I'm guessing you took this in on trade for [insert money] so I'll give you [insert the same amount plus $500] and I don't call the state's attorney general to launch an investigation.

Ok, that's really not what I WILL do, but he doesn't know that.

I don't see a way for you to get it for near $6k if he's "got to get $12.5."  He just needs to find a bigger idiot than you.

Maybe if he's got to sit on it for another couple of months he'll come to his senses, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Yeah, not holding my breath.  I already slapped him a bit.  When I asked how much for cash and he said $12.5k, I responded with "Hard pass, thanks. Looking at several with under 60k for $3000-6000. It is very nice, but not worth more than twice the book."  I thanked him for the brass tacks and left it at that in mid-april.

I'm ready to take another swing, but I won't waste my time with a third at-bat.  He either throws an honest fastball in response to my stance at the plate, or I bunt.  I just want to present the best stance.

I don't really do sportsing... does that analogy even make sense?  Maybe if I weren't the type who is shopping for an XJR I'd be better at sportsing metaphors.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Dave M (Forum Supporter) said:

What on earth does $6,000 down, $9,000 finance mean? Looks like a scam or BHPH (same thing really).

It means the price is $15k with $6000 down.  So you finance $9k for 10 years and give the dealer an extra $1500 on the back door.

I want to be able to go to this guy and say, "look, I know you're involved in [insert potentially legal but shady dealership ploy] and I'm guessing you took this in on trade for [insert money] so I'll give you [insert the same amount plus $500] and I don't call the state's attorney general to launch an investigation.

Ok, that's really not what I WILL do, but he doesn't know that.

 

He will laugh at you. He is in the finance business, not the car business. He is not interested in cash buyers. He is probably not afraid of lawsuits either because what he is doing is not against the law and he has been threatened before many times. He probably has a sleazy law firm on retainer. Your Attorney General has too much to worry about to mess with tiny tote the note car dealers.

The only way you will get this car is to finance it through him on his terms. If he doesn't find another sucker in a few months he will wholesale it to another dealer before he sells it to you for cash. Your deal is not going to happen.  

1988RedT2 said:

I don't see a way for you to get it for near $6k if he's "got to get $12.5."  He just needs to find a bigger idiot than you.

Maybe if he's got to sit on it for another couple of months he'll come to his senses, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

This is about where it seems to be.

If you go again a variation on your I know you're involved in thing, Threats aren't a good ploy IMO. Say, I know you're holding a bag with this and have cash right now to help you out of said bag. Have the KBB printout in case he isn't aware also have your business card. If he can't do it turn and walk.

If he were in the finance business, I would agree, but I'm not sure he is.  I get the feeling he's a patsy.  He might just be along for the ride.

I have bought a few cars from dealers for cheap because they were going to be auctioned.  Find a car you want on trade-in that they can't or won't sell and offer them a couple hundred more than what they would get at auction.  Snagged a pristine 87 Cutlass with 60k for $1750 that way.  They didn't want an old car on their new-car-dealer used lot, so they would have had to auction it for $1500 and pay the commission.  They won, I won.

L5wolvesf said:

1988RedT2 said:

I don't see a way for you to get it for near $6k if he's "got to get $12.5."  He just needs to find a bigger idiot than you.

Maybe if he's got to sit on it for another couple of months he'll come to his senses, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

This is about where it seems to be.

If you go again a variation on your I know you're involved in thing, Threats aren't a good ploy IMO. Say, I know you're holding a bag with this and have cash right now to help you out of said bag. Have the KBB printout in case he isn't aware also have your business card. If he can't do it turn and walk.

"holding a bag" is a better way of saying what I was thinking.  I wouldn't ever threaten someone.  Sarcasm doesn't read well in text form.

The thing to do at the first go around was to respond with "keep my number and let me know when you're willing to sell it for $6k". Now that you've passed on it, taking a second pass at it just tells him you're really interested and males him less likely to budge. Not sure you really have a move here other than waiting for him to figure it out on his own. Unless you can find some actual hard evidence of a crime being committed and are willing to effectively black mail him into selling it to you cheap.

If you're that far apart on price, you're not going to talk them down.  Say thank you and move on.

Yeah... forget the whole blackmail-flavored thing I said before... it's not what I meant.  Poor phrasing.  

I'm not going to go to a dealer and say "sell me this or I call an attorney."  Ignore that whole post.  L5wolvesf put it exactly how I meant to say it... "holding a bag."

I'm a pretty shrewd negotiator, especially when it comes to used car dealers, but that shrewdness could just be because of luck and confidence.  I usually avoid dealers because of the overhead, but I was able to get an $8000 (advertised) F150 for $4500 after exactly 4 minutes of negotiation, and a $6500 Mazda for $4000 by sitting and waiting with the "call me when..." approach.

Yes, I want this XJR, but there are hundreds out there just like it.  This one just seems like a particularly good fit, and a fun challenge.

How about you say berk it to that guy and PM Yupididit about his?  If this guy isn't gonna sell you're just beating your head against the wall.  I understand as I did the same with a dealer here.  They lost a couple grand sending the car to auction just not to deal with me.  Berk the dealerships.

Does he have your info on file? You could try doing stuff over the phone... it's also been 4 months. I don't think you making him an offer makes you look desperate. You're simply still interested at a reasonable price. If you really want it, offer $6500 and slap a deposit on the table. Be willing to go to $7k?

If they wholesale it they're going to get what a few k? It's hard for some dealers to handle it when they put too much money into a car. Alternatively, a lot of the "bad credit" financing type dealerships bank on customers with poor impulse control for these old "dream cars." It might be worth it for them to hang on for this type of customer. Their 10% interest on a car they might have a few k into might not justify doing the normally rational thing.

I have talked to Yupididit.  Very helpful.

I'm not beating my head against a wall, I'm interested in an XJR.  I have been for two years.  I'm just waiting for the right deal... or in this case, trying to orchestrate a deal on a sweet example that I would love to have.

Another metaphor:  I'm the music/theater nerd in high school wanting to ask the head cheerleader to prom.  The worst that can happen is she says no, but it doesn't hurt to ask the hive for some suggested ways to phrase the question in a way to take my chances all the way from 0% to 5%

Snrub said:

Does he have your info on file? You could try doing stuff over the phone... it's also been 4 months. I don't think you making him an offer makes you look desperate. You're simply still interested at a reasonable price. If you really want it, offer $6500 and slap a deposit on the table. Be willing to go to $7k?

If they wholesale it they're going to get what a few k? It's hard for some dealers to handle it when they put too much money into a car. Alternatively, a lot of the "bad credit" financing type dealerships bank on customers with poor impulse control for these old "dream cars." It might be worth it for them to hang on for this type of customer. Their 10% interest on a car they might have a few k into might not justify doing the normally rational thing.

This is exactly what I was thinking.  I may have burned the FB bridge, but his personal FB page shows a string of used cars with his phone number.  I'll give him a call.  

I'm terrible in text (as evidenced by my post above) and pretty crappy on the phone.  In person, I'm a genius.  I should call and set up a time to come see it in person.

I just don't get why you would spend time messing around with someone who is clearly up to no good when there's gotta be another XJR out there. They're not unobtanium!

Yeah, sounds like Buy-Here-Pay-Here BS. Why would they sell to you when they can (not, but should be) criminally assault someone for several times the value of the car. Predatory lending sucks. Don't get me started on cash advance places. 

Have several of your buddies call and make him offers even less than your offer. All of a sudden yours won't sound as ridiculous as he thought it was and maybe he will see the light. I've used this in the past and it works sometimes.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

In response to title of thread:

buy from someone else

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

In response to title of thread:

buy from someone else

Word.

Don't let the current high price lure you into thinking this is a well preserved example. That's not the way BHPH works.  Well, it kinda does. 

Even crappy versions get high prices as a way to make the car look "special". 

Instead, this car is tainted with the stink of the BHPH guy. Shop elsewhere.