How to win the UTCC (or do really well) on a budget

Osterkraut wrote: Shiftercart+ GSX-R 750 engine+ aero?

A speedway cart body over that package might do the trick.

MrJoshua wrote: FC-$1000 Wheels and tires-$1000 LS1/t56-$3000 Suspension-$1000 Cage-$1000 Seat/harnesses-$500 Aero-$500 Turbo setup-$1000 Fuel system-$500 Computer-$500 Total-$10,000 Edit: I forgot to add in the ebay front fenders and rear flares and paint. I have built and shopped LS1 FC parts for many years now and I can easily make those numbers and think some could be cut drastically.

It would be fun to try this recipe!

S4 928 with turbo or supercharger. People push north of 500hp with that setup frequently.

In reply to dyintorace:

It would be a cool project, no doubt but if the goal was to win the UTCC outright... here is the competition:

Daytona protoypes qualify at VIR in the low 1:40s and on a flyer for qualifying I'd imagine 38s are possible. A Judd/lola can get into the low 30s. A Viper Cup will be in the 1:52 - 55 range. A track prepped Exige S will do a 2.09 and be near the pointy end of the NASA time attack field.

I just can't see a budget suspension/aero setup making it around VIR in under 2 flat even with 1000hp turbo blurring the straights. That track rewards stopping and turning as much as mind-bending accel.

I don't see a Miata doing it. At the power levels necessary to win, the car would be an absolute BEAR to drive. Or it wouldn't really be a Miata anymore.

I would personally be happy running the Viper Cup times.

The miatas will run out of gear. Power is not everything either, getting power into car "X" is the easy part. The aero and chassis setup with development time is what will get you to the finish line first.

I think the only way your going to win is to out-do the fast guys that run some racing class "legal" aero. I would think look at Pikes peak type cars and go NUTS on aero. HUGE HUGE wings, DEEP DEEP tunnels, Wide sticky tires. Think Amod Autox car but with 2-3x the wing and 4x the power to overcome the drag. Oh and maybe Active Aero if GRM/VIR would allow it.
Aero is relatively speaking cheap if you don't need to worry about class rules/structure. You can build heavy wings that produce poor L/D numbers but overcome it with massive power because you aren't required to meet any class rules.

Just my thought. I agree if your competting with Daytona prototype type cars you wont win with anything based on a full car and must go Open wheel dedicated race chassis.

Maroon92 wrote:

yeha22 wrote: The only way I can see to beat this would be to find something lighter. The best solution I see is a Lotus Europa. If you've got a welder you can expand the rear frame as needed to fit an LSx and the requisite turbos. Then you're looking at about the same power as the C5 solution, but almost half the weight. Tires will be smaller, but the weight solves that too. Plus, a used up Europa will be cheaper than a C5, so you can spend the remainder of your $20k on getting some proper aero for the car.

LOTUS EUROPA? LS? Are you mad? The engine would tear the car in half!

Sanity isn't really supposed to factor in though. You'll have to get crafty and beef up the subframe, but if you can put an LS into a Miata you can certainly fit one into a Europa. It only has to last long enough to win.

You can't deny that it would be awesome.

Turbocharged Formula Mazda?

I'm thinking you just borrow a Radical SR-8 from one of your most trusted friends unless you have access to real open wheel race cars. If you could lay hands on a used IRL car... that would be swell.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: In reply to dyintorace: It would be a cool project, no doubt but if the goal was to win the UTCC outright... here is the competition: Daytona protoypes qualify at VIR in the low 1:40s and on a flyer for qualifying I'd imagine 38s are possible. A Judd/lola can get into the low 30s. A Viper Cup will be in the 1:52 - 55 range. A track prepped Exige S will do a 2.09 and be near the pointy end of the NASA time attack field. I just can't see a budget suspension/aero setup making it around VIR in under 2 flat even with 1000hp turbo blurring the straights. That track rewards stopping and turning as much as mind-bending accel.

You're right...anything that starts with a road going car won't be able to compete with a purpose built prototype (or open wheel or Radical, etc). Hence the title to this thread, "how to win the UTCC (or do really well) on a budget". Nothing other than a purpose built race car will compete with another purpose built race car. But remember, last year a 1974 Dodge won the event, not a Daytona prototype.

dyintorace wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: In reply to dyintorace: It would be a cool project, no doubt but if the goal was to win the UTCC outright... here is the competition: Daytona protoypes qualify at VIR in the low 1:40s and on a flyer for qualifying I'd imagine 38s are possible. A Judd/lola can get into the low 30s. A Viper Cup will be in the 1:52 - 55 range. A track prepped Exige S will do a 2.09 and be near the pointy end of the NASA time attack field. I just can't see a budget suspension/aero setup making it around VIR in under 2 flat even with 1000hp turbo blurring the straights. That track rewards stopping and turning as much as mind-bending accel.

You're right...anything that starts with a road going car won't be able to compete with a purpose built prototype (or open wheel or Radical, etc). Hence the title to this thread, "how to win the UTCC (or do really well) on a budget". Nothing other than a purpose built race car will compete with another purpose built race car. But remember, last year a 1974 Dodge won the event, not a Daytona prototype.

I thought it came in 3rd overall, 1st in it's class.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

And that Dodge is a purpose built tube chassis race car ( if you mean Glenn's).

I think it is possible to build your own tube chassis race car on a budget. Maximize lightness, grip and aero... but I do not think you can start with something that used to be a car. I think a Lotus 7 clone done up like a Donkervoort with aero has a real shot.

EDIT : For reference...

Obviously... that bodywork isn't on a budget but ya might be able to cobble something close with enough fiberglass resin.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: And that Dodge is a purpose built tube chassis race car.

Yep, and it didn't even win. Sign of the times.

Glen Bunch's Challenger did win.

Challenger--- 1:54.428

Viper ACR-X (Driven by Kuno Wittmer)- 1:54.464

Porsche 911 GT2--- 1:55.703

I still maintain that the least expensive way to compete for the win would be a 7 Type car with Aero. John Meyer's MegaStalker was runnng 2:00.871 with the aerodynamics of a brick!

His car could be replicated for well under $20K. The cars that beat him could not be replicated for under $75-$100K!

With a bit less aero drag he may have had a shot.

Oh, my mistake. Thought i saw someone on his youtube link posted earlier that said he got third.

Yep, i did... but that was 2009. My apologies!

Joe Gearin wrote: Glen Bunch's Challenger did win. Challenger--- 1:54.428 Viper ACR-X (Driven by Kuno Wittmer)- 1:54.464 Porsche 911 GT2--- 1:55.703 I still maintain that the least expensive way to compete for the win would be a 7 Type car with Aero. John Meyer's MegaStalker was runnng 2:00.871 with the aerodynamics of a brick! His car could be replicated for well under $20K. The cars that beat him could not be replicated for under $75-$100K! With a bit less aero drag he may have had a shot.

This confirms my hypothesis. 2nd and 3rd place started life as street cars. The MegaStalker was within ~6 seconds on a long course and, per Joe's thoughts, could be built for less than $20k. That's amazing, given the mega dollar hardware he was competing against.

Just needs moar powa, moar tire, moar aero, and moar brake. Should be a piece of cake ;)

I like the general Locost idea, but the shape is pretty thoroughly non-aero... I'd be inclined to try to apply that line of thinking and a pile of tubing to something shaped a bit like a Can Am car or similar...

How many horrible, accidental aero mistakes will you make trying to build an aluminum-sheet-with-fiberglass-bits skin that looks kinda-sorta like the latest Audi or Peugeot Le Mans cars?

You could always go "turn-key" but it isn't very GRM:

http://www.racingjunk.com/category/82/Formula/post/2217276/1986-March-Indy-Light-with-SBC.html

http://www.racingjunk.com/category/77/NASCAR_ARCA_ASA_HOOTERS/post/2233190/NASCAR-K-amp-N-East-West-or-ARCA-Car.html

http://www.racingjunk.com/category/77/NASCAR_ARCA_ASA_HOOTERS/post/2222587/ROUSH-NASCAR-BUSCH-JEFF-BURTON-CAR.html

etc...

In reply to tuna55:

Wow... That last one... I mean, I don't just have $6k lying around to toss, but it seems like a junkyard LSx plugged into that, plus wheels and tires? Am I optimistically misinterpreting "roller"?

Seems like something of a bargain. OTOH, it could be that every expensive full-race piece on that car is at 97% of its useful service life...

ransom wrote: In reply to tuna55: Wow... That last one... I mean, I don't just have $6k lying around to toss, but it seems like a junkyard LSx plugged into that, plus wheels and tires? Am I optimistically misinterpreting "roller"? Seems like something of a bargain. OTOH, it could be that every expensive full-race piece on that car is at 97% of its useful service life...

True on both counts. Sure does sound tempting though, doesn't it?

Wow indeed! An ex-nascar car with a turbo LSX and tires made to last less than a few hundred miles and it should be a contender!

MrJoshua wrote: Wow indeed! An ex-nascar car with a turbo LSX and tires made to last less than a few hundred miles and it should be a contender!

Stout.