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BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/12/24 8:54 p.m.

While I'm waiting for the latest attempt at buying a car from CarMax to arrive at the local branch, I couldn't stay of FB Marketplace, could I?

And with my usual "oh look, squirrel" attention span I couldn't help but notice that there were a couple of higher mileage (80k-120k) Boss 302s for sale that would come in nicely below my budget and very close to my psychological "afraid to track" price point. Much closer than a Golf R or a Civic Type R.

One of them has a description that seems to translate "engine done blown up and rebuilt" at only about 80k, the other one with 120k seems to have escaped that fate. Online searches didn't bring much enlightenment other than some people blew them up on the track, but that all seems to have happened a long time ago.

A nice, normal S197 would probably do the job as well given my level of talent, but then driving something a bit more special that's been used enough so it's not going to get devalued by me using it has a certain appeal.

What says the hive?

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/13/24 8:06 a.m.

FWIW, we have an S197 guide waiting in the wings. Should be on the site shortly. 

ScottyB
ScottyB HalfDork
3/13/24 10:46 a.m.

i've always loved these things. briefly considered just sending it and dailying one of em instead of my 6th gen camaro during my search this past year.

from purely anecdotal forum drivel that i've immersed myself in, i've gathered that the special "track" key they come with, engages a fuel/timing map that is apparently on the "too spicy" side for sustained antics on 93 and really optimized for race gas.  there have been more than a few that have blown at the track, like you've seen, and i've noticed that responses coming from those with some tuning experience seem to want to point to the fuel/timing trims when using that track key map.  again, no proof there, just what I've heard and maybe the high mileage ones spent a lot of time on the highway just piling up miles with the normal tune engaged.

otherwise, seems like the pain points are generally whether the MT82 was abused and the stock clutch seems kinda weak.  the rest is pretty well sorted.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/13/24 12:20 p.m.

In reply to ScottyB :

Sounds like we've found similar "I used the track key and am now waiting for a piston to come back from its geostationary orbit" posts.

Thanks for the pointers re the transmission and stock clutch.

racerfink
racerfink UberDork
3/13/24 4:13 p.m.

A friend of mine has a 2012.  The couple of times he took it to the drag strip on the stock clutch, there were problems that arose.  It's been a while, and he's since fixed the problem, but he would have a tough time beating my V6 Camaro.  By the time he made the 3-4 shift, the clutch would take over a second to engage after releasing the pedal.  Could be the reason for the blown motors.  My friend has drag raced a long time, so he kept from zinging the motor under no load the few times it happened (seemed to be worse the hotter the under hood temp got).

LukeGT
LukeGT GRM+ Memberand New Reader
3/13/24 4:39 p.m.

As stated already, the stock clutch is definitely a weak point, and is often the cause of the majority of woes that people will list about the mt-82, such as lockout at high RPM's. I can say that the Roadrunner Coyote that is in the Boss Mustangs is among the very strongest of Coyotes and has been shown to hold up to 1,000whp without any internal upgrades. Once you take care of the clutch, the rest of the car is generally very Stout and reliable. My car is not a Boss (13 GT Premium) but being a Track Pack, it's often referred to as a "Boss lite" as it came with several boss goodies such as the oil cooler and Torsen rear diff with 3.73 gears. My car has a little over 98k on it and I've done somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-20 track days (along with many, many back road runs and a few drag days) completely reliably. Shockingly my car doesn't even burn or leak any oil and it has all of its original seals intact, and I by no means baby it. I can say that the cars handling was a bit disappointing from the factory but with upgraded springs, dampers, and tires, it's done quite well and kept up with a lot of cars I wouldn't have expected. Overall it's a joy to drive and very easy to work on. Parts are also cheap relative to most other similarly powered cars. I'd say drive one and see what you think! 

Evanuel9
Evanuel9 Reader
3/13/24 5:14 p.m.

Doesnt hoovie have one with 200k

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
3/13/24 6:11 p.m.
racerfink said:

A friend of mine has a 2012.  The couple of times he took it to the drag strip on the stock clutch, there were problems that arose.  It's been a while, and he's since fixed the problem, but he would have a tough time beating my V6 Camaro.  By the time he made the 3-4 shift, the clutch would take over a second to engage after releasing the pedal.  Could be the reason for the blown motors.  My friend has drag raced a long time, so he kept from zinging the motor under no load the few times it happened (seemed to be worse the hotter the under hood temp got).

Do they have a CDV that is causing the slow engagement? So you effectively end up "slipping" the clutch way more, adding more heat, and causing the issue?

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/13/24 6:17 p.m.

In reply to Evanuel9 :

IIRC he has a Shelby GT500. From what I read, one doesn't want to track a Shleby. 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
3/13/24 10:16 p.m.
BoxheadTim said:

In reply to Evanuel9 :

IIRC he has a Shelby GT500. From what I read, one doesn't want to track a Shleby. 

Yeah, it's a GT500 with like 230k and an aftermarket supercharger. He dynoed it and it was still making some silly number at the wheels, over 500hp, IIRC.

LukeGT
LukeGT GRM+ Memberand New Reader
3/13/24 10:47 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Nope no clutch delay  valve on the Mustangs.  Also if someone is having a hard time beating a V6 Camaro in a Boss 302, they need serious driving lessons lol. My car went 12.50s@113mph bone stock, even stock clutch. Boss 302s should go low 12s all day with a halfway competent driver, and no V6 Camaros getting there without lots of Boost. 

dannyp84
dannyp84 HalfDork
3/13/24 10:55 p.m.
ScottyB said:

i've always loved these things. briefly considered just sending it and dailying one of em instead of my 6th gen camaro during my search this past year.

from purely anecdotal forum drivel that i've immersed myself in, i've gathered that the special "track" key they come with, engages a fuel/timing map that is apparently on the "too spicy" side for sustained antics on 93 and really optimized for race gas.  there have been more than a few that have blown at the track, like you've seen, and i've noticed that responses coming from those with some tuning experience seem to want to point to the fuel/timing trims when using that track key map.  again, no proof there, just what I've heard and maybe the high mileage ones spent a lot of time on the highway just piling up miles with the normal tune engaged.

otherwise, seems like the pain points are generally whether the MT82 was abused and the stock clutch seems kinda weak.  the rest is pretty well sorted.

Does race gas play nice with modern catalytic converters?

ScottyB
ScottyB HalfDork
3/14/24 9:16 a.m.
dannyp84 said:

Does race gas play nice with modern catalytic converters?

no idea!  if its not leaded i can't imagine why not.

Fair
Fair New Reader
3/14/24 10:12 a.m.

The 2011-14 "Coyote" powered Mustang GT and even the Boss302 are some of the best bargains out there right now for a fun, V8 powered, low cost, track worthy car. They do, like all cars, have some issues that will be outlined in the upcoming "Mustang Buyers Guide" that J.A. referenced.

All of these issues easily fixed or upgraded, and all things that virtually any modern car has to deal with - lack of camber, soft springs, and "too much altitude". cool (would you believe the car shown above is the same car below?) The article will show more of this, but here's a few quick observations...

Having owned several of these "late" S197 V8 Mustangs, as owner of a shop that's worked on 50+, having developed and sold suspension and brake parts to 1000s, and having driven and/or coached right seat in 80+ of these, I've perhaps got a unique perspective. First hand knowledge of these cars run in competition within Solo, Time Trial, W2W, and more. We have explored the upgrade paths, found the weak links, developed parts to fix the worst bits, and have been witness to many hundreds of terrible products pushed to this community.

Many of the issues I've seen pointed out in this thread already come from a common source - driver induced. The "terrible" clutch that these cars have? It's actually fine if you aren't a speed shifting lunatic drag racer. My wife and I both drove this 2011 GT above at NASA weekends, often back-to-back in different run groups, for 20K miles on track over 5 years.

We also drag raced it, autocrossed it, and very rarely street drove it. We never had a clutch failure, missed shift, or other issue that could be clutch related. I wouldn't say that the clutch is "over-built", but it is adequate for the power the car made (447 whp with headers, a cold air & tune, on 93 octane).


We had zero issues with the engine but we also didn't over-rev the engine like many - peak power was at 6400 rpm, so we changed gear at 7000, and never exceeded that. These DOHC V8s have about 40 feet worth of heaving timing chains, which then has a lot of MASS. When you rev these to 8000 rpm and beyond they start to eat the chain guides, oil pumps shatter, and all sorts of bad things happen. As backwards as this sounds, these DOHC V8s do NOT like the higher RPM ranges that people associate with them.

But I've ridden with some real ham fisted gorillas that felt that since this car came with a 420+ hp engine that therefore the transmisson and clutch should be INDESTRUCTIBLE. That of course is not the case. I've had to tell HPDE students to CHILL OUT with the massively over-done shifting, clutch abuse, and USING THE SHIFTER AS A HANDLE. If I had a dollar for every time I've had to gentle tap a driver's hand who was holding on for dear life to the 6-speed shift knob, I'd be a thousandaire.



Leaning on and abusing the shifter seems harmless, but it bends shift forks, and that leads to these "long engagement" and delayed shift issues. The Getrag MT-82 6 speed in these 2011-14 GT and Boss cars is likely the weakest part of the entire chassis, too (we had one that failed, in gear, at 18,000 track miles - it was from heat, not missed shifts). "Some drivers" can kill these transmissions multiple times under their ownership, while curiously others don't seem to have these problems - even fast drivers. Some people can also break an anvil with a feather, and the "typical Mustang crowd" is chock full of this lot! wink#BlameTheVictim

Now to address the OPs question - should he buy a high mileage Boss 302? Sure, if the price is right. But remember, the "Roadrunner" engine in the Boss isn't really all that special, and what makes the "Boss" difference is mostly the intake manifold, the Brembo brakes (optional on the GT since 2011), a Torsen differential (optional on the 2013-14 Track Pack GT) and a diff cover (also on the Track Pack). They also come with the Recaro seats (very nice, and optional in other cars), and some subtle aero treatments. And a lot of stickers. The main convenience is - this one is easier to spot among the used car offerings, as the Track Pack (which has almost all of the same features) is not noticeably marked as such.

The miles don't really "hurt" these cars, but inattentive and abusive owners do. It is usually easy to see the abuse before you buy - look for balled up rubber in the rear wheel wells (drag racers), or excessive "power mods" underhood. If they have maintenance records and you see multiple transmission or engine replacements, that is not a GOOD thing, either.

Also, don't get hung up on the Boss302 thing - there isn't really a big enough difference to the 2013-14 Track Pack GT (above) to make them have enough "prominence" to fetch a premium price anymore. This model is very different than say... the S550 chassis Mustang Shelby GT350, which did come with some rather unique items, a unique engine, unique brakes, wider wheels, differential coolers, etc (caveat: the 2022-23 Mach I had almost all of that without the vibration prone flat plane crank "voodoo" engine that had lots of failures). So if you can find a Track Pack car, or even a 2011-14 "Brembo" optioned GT 6-speed manual, and it isn't heavily modified, go for it. My racing buddy has a 2011 GT Brembo car with 127K miles and it runs great to this day, and he's had it since new - the only thing he has had to replace are tires and brake pads.

The S197 has absolutely AMAZING and fast acting ABS programming, which is the envy of other car makers this side of Porsche. We swap the S197 ABS onto lots of other chassis because it is SO GOOD. To make up for the weight, you have to keep the "tire width-to-weight ratio" in mind, All of the images shown here are cars we have upgraded with 11" wide wheels and 315mm tires, at the minimum.

Not everyone likes driving a RWD car with more than 400 hp, and I get that. But if you get bored with an 86 or Miata and want "that other vector" to challenge you (ie: forward acceleration), these can be great candidates for a track toy for well under $20K these days. With these 2011-14 V8 Mustangs you get amazing power, reliability (without gorillas shifting them), great brakes (for the time), amazing ABS, and with a few dollars spent - pretty decent handling. Again - you can never have too much wheel and tire width on heavy, powerful pony cars. The car above is on 335mm front and 345mm rears with 18x14" wheels. If they made a wider tire, we'd use it! laugh


The only option in the Mustang world that is better is... the next generation. The S550 chassis has an updated double-ball jointed front suspension, even bigger/better brakes, and an amazing independent rear suspension. The basic V8 S550 GT gained no weight over the outgoing S197 chassis' GT version, but the handling and ride are better. They are newer, hence more money now...

Cheers!

 

Jah29
Jah29 GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/14/24 1:31 p.m.

In reply to Fair :

Do you think the s550 is worth price increase over the s197?

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
3/14/24 1:49 p.m.
Jah29 said:

In reply to Fair :

Do you think the s550 is worth price increase over the s197?

I know you're not asking me, but what I found last year was that the price delta between an early S550 GT and a Coyote-powered S197 wasn't that big, especially for the 13-14 models. That's the main reason I ended up with a 4.6 S197. It was markedly cheaper than any of the 5.0 cars. If I'd decided to spend a bit more, it was worth it to go S550, IMO.

Now, of course, once you get into the Bosses and other limited editions, a lot of that goes out the window, pricing-wise.

Jah29
Jah29 GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/14/24 2:59 p.m.

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

Thank you.  Exactly the info I was looking for!!

Fair
Fair New Reader
3/14/24 4:28 p.m.
Jah29 said:

In reply to Fair :

Do you think the s550 is worth price increase over the s197?

Well... it depends on what your goals and budget are. If you are chasing high end 5.0L S197 models like the 2013-14 Track Pack or Boss 302, well... a base 2018 Mustang GT is on par nowadays on price. That 2018-23 GT model has quite a bit more power (3rd gen Coyote's are 12.5:1 compression and direct injected), the MT82-D4 transmission is stronger starting that year, and of course the suspension is quite a bit better in stock form.




If we could more easily transfer this S550 rear suspension to the S197 (long story short - you cannot) then the comparison would be a lot more difficult. But this IRS is so superior it doesn't even compare.

This S197 above has a $10K cambered solid rear axle (with a whopping -1.0° camber per side) and still doesn't come close to what we can do in an S550 with just stock camber and toe adjustments.

With a simple change to an aftermarket upper control arm on an S550, we can dial in whatever rear camber numbers we want. We put -4.25° front and -3.2° rear camber into this thing and it has more cornering force + still maintains forward accel and braking numbers that exceed what we can get in an S197. It's just physics.

But the S197 is still a formidable track platform, just know that the solid axle rear suspension will never drive as well or take bumps as well as the S550 IRS does. If you can avoid the pricier versions, the 2011-14 5.0L GT is still a great platform for less money than the 2018-23 GT.

11GTCS
11GTCS SuperDork
3/14/24 5:43 p.m.

In reply to Fair :

As the owner of a very early Coyote S197 I appreciate your very informative post.  We use ours as more of a GT / cruiser so it's reassuring to hear that with good maintenance and sensible driving I can expect to be driving it for a while.

Datsun240ZGuy
Datsun240ZGuy MegaDork
3/14/24 7:52 p.m.

I just had a minor eye procedure done last week - is it me or is the print size shrinking?

Loweguy5
Loweguy5 GRM+ Memberand Dork
3/14/24 9:35 p.m.

In reply to 11GTCS :

And as the owner of an 08 GT I 100% agree with your response.  All the S197s are robust and when handled by a reasonable driver they can offer a long lifespan even when driven briskly.

Loweguy5
Loweguy5 GRM+ Memberand Dork
3/14/24 9:37 p.m.

In reply to Datsun240ZGuy :

What did you have done?  Over the last 3 weeks I've had cataract surgery done by laser plus new interocular lenses installed in both eyes.  I'm now able to see a nail head from 3 miles away!

amg_rx7 (Forum Supporter)
amg_rx7 (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
3/15/24 2:30 p.m.

By the time you fix the clutch issue that might or might not make the terrible 5 speed manual shift just "ok", you probably could have bought the next generation with the much better shifting 6 speed. That's what I would recommend based on my S197 ownership experience. 
 

Beyond that, the 4.6 is a boring engine. It does not like to rev. Makes cool noise though. 
 

The steering is also kinda meh. Not a lot of feel, over boosted, huge steering wheel. 
 

Stock suspension tuning is terrible. Really needs coilovers. Even Koni and lowering springs wasn't sufficient to tame the body roll. Especially at turn in. 
 

People who are into Mustangs and modifying Mustangs don't seem to care much about the stuff I mentioned. People who enjoy drivers cars do. From my experience anyway. Ymmv 

ScottyB
ScottyB HalfDork
3/15/24 4:12 p.m.
Fair said:

and USING THE SHIFTER AS A HANDLE.

*uncontrollable eye twitch*

you HWHAT?! 

RacingComputers
RacingComputers GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/16/24 3:37 p.m.

In reply to David S. Wallens :

Can't Wait

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