How would you do it ? AWD LS Volvo

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

You are correct the are all WAGs. But it is fun for me to plan out and think about. 
I have bought two cheap S10 frames. One "regular" and one of the zR2 frames. The ZR2 frames are set up a little different and come with stronger front and rear differentials (according to the internet)

I have started to do some measuring. But am trying to get one project done ( lnf into 190e) before I start on the next one. The 960 I got was running and driving right before I bought it, so my plan is to getting it running and driving again stock and then keep planning this out while I finish up the other project. 
 

obsolete said:

Contributing another WAG: I know there are plenty of LS-to-BMW transmission adapters out there, and BMW makes AWD drivetrains. Would it be possible to bolt an LS to the drivetrain of a 3 or 5-something-xi?

I like that idea better than the truck-donor option.  You'll still likely need to do sheet metal massaging to make room for the forward drive components, but at least the BMW bits were designed around a uni-body chassis.  The one catch is I seem to recall the front axle of AWD BMWs runs through the engine oil pan.  Would this make an LS swap impossible?  Hard to say until further measurements are taken.  You might be able to fabricate your way out of the problem. I could also be totally wrong. It's been awhile since I dug into BMWs.  I have a bit of PTSD with regards to the past BMWs in my life. 

I have a 325xi sitting next to an LS powered 240 at home. I can take some measurements later.

Does any version of that chassis come with factory AWD? If so, that is where I would source the front hubs. If memory serves me right Volvo used stout rear diffs on the RWD cars so you may get away with one there. If not, I would swap a diff instead of hubs (IRS right?).

If you have a factory rear diff setup, and AWD hubs, then you just need to mount the motor and trans, fabricate a driveshaft and axles, and try to leave yourself somewhere to sit. I think you already referenced the fact that GM factory AWD with the diff in the pan puts the transfer case under the driver in a truck, and through the driver if you want to put it in a car. Is there a RHD version of that car?

Here is a very poorly drawn picture of the rough measurements I had taken. 
 

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

obsolete said:

Contributing another WAG: I know there are plenty of LS-to-BMW transmission adapters out there, and BMW makes AWD drivetrains. Would it be possible to bolt an LS to the drivetrain of a 3 or 5-something-xi?

I like that idea better than the truck-donor option.  You'll still likely need to do sheet metal massaging to make room for the forward drive components, but at least the BMW bits were designed around a uni-body chassis.  The one catch is I seem to recall the front axle of AWD BMWs runs through the engine oil pan.  Would this make an LS swap impossible?  Hard to say until further measurements are taken.  You might be able to fabricate your way out of the problem. I could also be totally wrong. It's been awhile since I dug into BMWs.  I have a bit of PTSD with regards to the past BMWs in my life. 

GM does it on the LM4, here's the factory oil pan from one of those:

No idea how much fabrication it would take to get it to work; probably still a ton. But it works in my head.

In reply to MrJoshua :

I don't think any of the RWD Volvo's came with a AWD option that I know of. When they went to fwd transverse engine they started to add AWD options.

I was thinking about that when I posted this thread. 
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/volvo-front-suspension-fwd-vs-rwd-years/191011/page1/

There might be a way to set up the suspension using the fwd Volvo parts but I couldn't figure out an easy way to do it   
 

Are you saying on the trying to find a RHD option to get a passenger side drop for the front diff and transfer case? 
 

If so I know that the sts AWD that was mentioned above has a passenger side drop and so does the early chevy colorado I think. 
 

But I couldn't find a good AWD tcase set up that way. I want one that is mechanical, not one that uses electronics to sense grip. The reading I have done, says the electronic ones seem to have a short hesitation before spinning the front tires.

In reply to Racebrick :

Do you think a 325xi front diff, axles etc would take the torque of a ls type engine? 

I guess there are also some Audi AWD with longitudinal v8's too that could be looked at for a front subframe. 

Somebeach (Forum Supporter) said:

Here is a very poorly drawn picture of the rough measurements I had taken. 
 

Ouside of Subaru with their goofy flat engines there are an amazing number of cars with approximately 30"wide frame rails. 

B8444S swap your wagon?

IMO, they sound a lot better than an LS.

Sample

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

In my mind it seems like unibody to unibody would be better too.
 

But why would that option be better than grafting the frame rails from the S10 with the unibody frame rails of the Volvo? 

In reply to fanfoy :

I like how those sound for sure. Would that AWD system be less reliable though than the very reliable bw4772? I was thinking some Volvo factory AWD systems were not very reliable? Haladex or something like that. 

Somebeach (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

In my mind it seems like unibody to unibody would be better too.
 

But why would that option be better than grafting the frame rails from the S10 with the unibody frame rails of the Volvo? 

You could - cut out the Volvo subframe and weld in the S10 frame rails in their place.  It will definitely require some structural thinking since all of the front suspension points would be moved to the frame rather than the more triangulated Mac-strut system.  The forces into the chassis will be different than originally designed. And since most of us don't have easy access to FEA modelling, the rule of thumb is to try to imagine how the forces will go, brace the berk out of everything and hope for the best.

One issue is the Volvo 960 is a RWD platform. To my knowledge, all Volvo AWD systems are FWD based using a transverse engine.  

99.9% sure an Audi system won't work as while the engine is mounted longitudally, the entire engine block is ahead of the front wheel center line, which means a ton of front overhang is required.  The Volvo has the front wheels too far forward.  Along this line of thinking, the V8/AWD system from a Volvo S80 would run into similar spacial issues, although to a lesser degree since that engine is transverse.

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

Rear drive Volvos don't have subframes, they have crossmembers.  You would have an easier time sticking a G body body on a T10 chassis.

The interesting thing is that a five cylinder S80 has a lot more front overhang than any Audi made in the last twenty years or so.

I forgot.  99% sure that T10 axles will spigot into GM fullsize FWD front hubs.  Might even be the same hubs.  That way you can keep the struts instead of adding 300lb of steel to handle the concentrated stresses of a control arm suspension.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

Rear drive Volvos don't have subframes, they have crossmembers.  You would have an easier time sticking a G body body on a T10 chassis.

 

Sub-frames... cross members... neither matter... What I meant was cutting out what wasn't needed and welding in mounts for the suspension components desired.  Binky-style.

Otherwise I agree any way to keep the strut suspension would be a good thing. Far more space efficient when space will be at a premium.

How similar are the wheelbases between the S10 and Volvo? If they're pretty close, you might be money ahead to just use the entire S10 frame and 'channel' or 'body drop' the volvo shell on top. That would likely be faster, cheaper and easier than trying to integrate the front half of a BoF S10 with the unibody shell of the Volvo.

You might even be able to do a 'stock floor body drop' by making custom, lower profile frame rails under the interior. That would keep your factory Volvo interior, and allow you to change the wheelbase however you want.

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks for all the insight, I didn't really think through the change in forces that would apply when changing to the control arm set up. 
 

The S10 (T10) is already braced enough because it has a full frame to spread the load over? Not saying to do it to this Volvo Bc it might result in a 4x4 truck look, but as STM317 said if you use the whole frame then you don't have to worry about all the extra bracing? Because all the engineering went into it already for the S10(T10)? 

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

How would that work? I am having trouble visualizing . I was thinking the GM full-size trucks still used a control arm type set up vs the strut type? 
 

Or are you saying a full-size car? Like an impala? 

In reply to STM317 :

When people do that are the welding in the body of the top car directly to the frame? 
 

I guess I need to find more examples of that. 
 

Also as Pete said would be much easier to just get a G body or body on frame wagon to start with. This is very true. But I got this wagon for a good price and it doesn't have any rust. 

Do I have to be the first one to say it?

Twin LS4's - one for front wheels, one for rear wheels

Somebeach (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to STM317 :

When people do that are the welding in the body of the top car directly to the frame? 
 

I guess I need to find more examples of that. 
 

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/channeling-body-drop-car/

Channeling is probably the cheapest way. But a stock floor body drop would give you the nicest end result. And having custom frame rails might help with other things like wheelbase alterations, etc

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/0412st-stock-floor-body-drop-basics/

In reply to Somebeach (Forum Supporter) :

He meant full-size car, any H-body (Bonneville, LeSabre, 88/98, DeVille etc.) should work, the steering knuckle and hub are separate parts and the knuckle bolts up to a mac strut

Somebeach (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to STM317 :

When people do that are the welding in the body of the top car directly to the frame? 
 

I guess I need to find more examples of that. 
 

Also as Pete said would be much easier to just get a G body or body on frame wagon to start with. This is very true. But I got this wagon for a good price and it doesn't have any rust. 

Well, it depends a bit on what you want when you're done. Yes, the easiest way to mate the two would be to weld (or otherwise attach) the Volvo body to the S10 frame. However, this will make the resulting vehicle significantly taller with a higher center of gravity.  If you want some sort of off-road vehicle, this is fine.  If you have more sporting intentions (which I would imagine is why you're asking these questions here and not on a 4x4 site), then probably not. 

A Google image search for "4x4 car conversion" will net you numerous examples of unibody cars attached to 4x4 frames. 

FWIW, my opinions on this sort of thing are based on the years of watching NOHOME's Volvo/Miata marriage. I had similar thoughts prior to him starting that project, but after seeing all of the compromises required to make it work, I am more solidly in the "copy the Project Binky method" camp now.  Either path will be a berk-ton of work, but the latter seems to net a more integrated result.