HPDE: how much do I suck?

Update, I recently made it out to my first event for the 2022 season.  This was a TNiA event at blackhawk farms on 5/10/2022.  Here is a video of my best lap of the night, it isn't my fastest lap ever at Blackhawk (I ran 1:23 last year).  In looking at the video I think there are a few areas of improvement; one stay on the gas through through the gas at the beginning of the lap and also not brake on the back straight kink and carry more speed through that and get hard on the brakes immediately after.  I would love to get some feedback from everybody else on the forum.  

Again no specific track experience so maybe take some of this with a grain of salt. T1 it looks like you start drifting to the right under braking and then snap the car into the corner from kind of the middle of the track, versus staying wide and making it a smooth arc. Looks like you were lining up to do a better job of it on the next lap as the video stops. Pretty much every major corner looks like you're leaving a lot of room on corner exit which means you could be carrying more speed through the corner. There's also a couple of spots where you coast into the corner, I think you referenced one of those? The back straight kink reminds me a lot of the pittrace kink and seems pretty high risk/relatively low reward. I'd work up on that slowly and would probably be one of the last things I'd worry about. I assume your brake indicator is just on/off, but it seems like there's a few times you just snap the brakes off and then turn in. I'd work on trying to trail brake a little bit, at least enough to smooth out the transition between braking and turn in.

ClearWaterMS said:

 I think there are a few areas of improvement; one stay on the gas through through the gas at the beginning of the lap.

also not brake on the back straight kink and carry more speed through that and get hard on the brakes immediately after.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmG0GcSv59g

So isolating those two things:

While it appears you can brake later into one, you also chirp the tires going into one. What you gain on the entrance you may loose on the exit.

As for the Kink:

 You could probably carry a bit more speed BUT now you will be carrying that bit more speed into the brake zone for the final turn. Your gain through the kink may cause you to run wide on the final turn as those two elements are staked close together.

Given the speed of the kink I'd inch up to it a bit at a time; perhaps brake a bit lighter rather than later. The later braking will compress the front suspension more and given the speed of the transitions may unload the front end leading to understeer, which could in theory cause the car to run wide on the exit of the kink. Corvettes make lousy grass track cars.

Overall you look great and it's very cool that you are thinking about what you're doing and how to improve. Just keep getting seat time.

Tom1200 said:

ClearWaterMS said:

 I think there are a few areas of improvement; one stay on the gas through through the gas at the beginning of the lap.

also not brake on the back straight kink and carry more speed through that and get hard on the brakes immediately after.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmG0GcSv59g

So isolating those two things:

While it appears you can brake later into one, you also chirp the tires going into one. What you gain on the entrance you may loose on the exit.

As for the Kink:

 You could probably carry a bit more speed BUT now you will be carrying that bit more speed into the brake zone for the final turn. Your gain through the kink may cause you to run wide on the final turn as those two elements are staked close together.

Given the speed of the kink I'd inch up to it a bit at a time; perhaps brake a bit lighter rather than later. The later braking will compress the front suspension more and given the speed of the transitions may unload the front end leading to understeer, which could in theory cause the car to run wide on the exit of the kink. Corvettes make lousy grass track cars.

Overall you look great and it's very cool that you are thinking about what you're doing and how to improve. Just keep getting seat time.

thanks for the feedback, the tire chirp was a missed heel toe on the downshift.  It's a skill that I get right alot less often then I get wrong. 

dps214 said:

Again no specific track experience so maybe take some of this with a grain of salt. T1 it looks like you start drifting to the right under braking and then snap the car into the corner from kind of the middle of the track, versus staying wide and making it a smooth arc. Looks like you were lining up to do a better job of it on the next lap as the video stops. Pretty much every major corner looks like you're leaving a lot of room on corner exit which means you could be carrying more speed through the corner. There's also a couple of spots where you coast into the corner, I think you referenced one of those? The back straight kink reminds me a lot of the pittrace kink and seems pretty high risk/relatively low reward. I'd work up on that slowly and would probably be one of the last things I'd worry about. I assume your brake indicator is just on/off, but it seems like there's a few times you just snap the brakes off and then turn in. I'd work on trying to trail brake a little bit, at least enough to smooth out the transition between braking and turn in.

When you say carry more speed, is the suggestion to try and carry more speed into the corner or accelerate harder in the corner to force the car to the outside of the corner?  I.E. "slow in; fast out" or more momentum?  

ClearWaterMS said:

dps214 said:

Again no specific track experience so maybe take some of this with a grain of salt. T1 it looks like you start drifting to the right under braking and then snap the car into the corner from kind of the middle of the track, versus staying wide and making it a smooth arc. Looks like you were lining up to do a better job of it on the next lap as the video stops. Pretty much every major corner looks like you're leaving a lot of room on corner exit which means you could be carrying more speed through the corner. There's also a couple of spots where you coast into the corner, I think you referenced one of those? The back straight kink reminds me a lot of the pittrace kink and seems pretty high risk/relatively low reward. I'd work up on that slowly and would probably be one of the last things I'd worry about. I assume your brake indicator is just on/off, but it seems like there's a few times you just snap the brakes off and then turn in. I'd work on trying to trail brake a little bit, at least enough to smooth out the transition between braking and turn in.

When you say carry more speed, is the suggestion to try and carry more speed into the corner or accelerate harder in the corner to force the car to the outside of the corner?  I.E. "slow in; fast out" or more momentum?  

Yes. Depends on whether you can carry more speed in without overshooting the apex. I'd probably start with just earlier/more aggressive (but still smooth) throttle application. Like I said I don't know the track at all, some off the track out area looks like it might be a bit rough. One of the first things I was taught was to get the line right first and use all the track (where appropriate) even if you're not going fast enough to need it. Then it'll be clearer where you could be going faster and as you go faster you'll have fewer surprises than if the first time you use all the track is at full speed.

I'll rather add than unwinding the wheel to let the car track all the way out to the exit kerbing let the momentum carry you out there. This way you'll more quickly get a read on how much momento you can actually carry.

i just posted a session from this past weekend at autobahn south, I ran a 1:45 which I think could have been a 44 except I caught traffic at the end of the lap.

Here is a session from this past Saturday's RevUp Track Day's group.  I ran a 1.24.4 which isn't a PR for me but improves from my previous times earlier this year at the same track.  Any feedback always appreciated.  

This is a tough one; there are some minor things bit at this point I'd have to rode along with you. 

There are a couple of spots where it appears you could carry a bit more more entry speed. 

At this point I'd say the biggest thing is to keep getting seat time.

It seems like you're being a bit aggressive with inputs, especially initial steering input. But it's hard to tell for sure without seeing what you're doing. It could also be the video stabilization (turn that off in the future) exaggerating the effects of direction changes.

dps214 said:

It seems like you're being a bit aggressive with inputs, especially initial steering input. But it's hard to tell for sure without seeing what you're doing. It could also be the video stabilization (turn that off in the future) exaggerating the effects of direction changes.

I suspect that is more image stabilization; i'll try turning it off next time out and see if the image quality is acceptable.  

thanks for the feedback

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

Lap times will tell you when you are going faster.  
   One thing, once you have the line down, just try for smoothness rather than speed. 
 I know I'm an aggressive racer having started in the rough and tumble  world of circle track where rubbing is racing.  And passing someone means more money.   
  In Vintage racing none of that contact is allowed  so being smooth  rewards with faster lap times.  Remarkably it seems slower to my butt clock but it's faster to the stop watch.  Plus it helps with the slow in fast out.   
     While we want to use all of the track going as fast as we can those corners often trap you into a too fast entry  which you make up for by over braking.  Then your exit speed isn't as fast as it could be.  

Any corner that leads to a straight,  really focus on that. Slow in fast out.  Tight corners following a straight?  Charge in as deep as you can.  
        
 That's lap time racing,  Qualifying. 
  Wheel to wheel is more of a chess game.    
If you do that ( charge in deep) he'll let you go by and while you're gathering yourself up he will nip by you on the inside.  Actual wheel to wheel dicing  is so intoxicating.  Rewarding, addicting. And you can get that high and low feeling corner after corner.  
 But that demands the utmost  in car control.  Knowing not only the edge but how much of the edge you can use. And how to use parts of the track not normally used to be successful. 
 
     

frenchyd said:

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

Any corner that leads to a straight,  really focus on that. Slow in fast out.  Tight corners following a straight?  Charge in as deep as you can.  

This bears repeating.  All other things equal your lap speed will be in proportion to how long you are at full throttle during the lap.  Corners before straights, work out in your mind what you have to do to get to full throttle as fast as possible past the apex.  Usually it's braking a little early and apexing a little late.  Corners after straights, work out how to push your braking points as late as possible.  Instead of thinking about where you want to start braking, think about where on the track you want to be finished braking and keep pushing your brake point later until you get there.  Focus on threshold braking; in a car with ABS, you should be right up to the point where you start feeling it pulse.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

Any corner that leads to a straight,  really focus on that. Slow in fast out.  Tight corners following a straight?  Charge in as deep as you can.  

This bears repeating.  All other things equal your lap speed will be in proportion to how long you are at full throttle during the lap.  Corners before straights, work out in your mind what you have to do to get to full throttle as fast as possible past the apex.  Usually it's braking a little early and apexing a little late.  Corners after straights, work out how to push your braking points as late as possible.  Instead of thinking about where you want to start braking, think about where on the track you want to be finished braking and keep pushing your brake point later until you get there.  Focus on threshold braking; in a car with ABS, you should be right up to the point where you start feeling it pulse.

Thank you @ShinnyGroove and @FrenchyD.  I'll try that next time I am out there.  

The lines in the two Blackhawk laps look pretty decent but there are several corners where you are leaving a foot or so to the edge of the track or to the apex.  This will come with more seat time.  The two 'corners' after the carousel (T3) are some what throwaway but you can make some good time through there but you need to make sure you are using all of the track to straighten that out.  The kink on the back straight heading into T7 can really upset the car if you get on that curbing but you need to get as close as you are comfortable here to be able to carry more speed into T7.  Also, try to use the concrete on the outside of T1 and T7 and other areas to expand the racing surface but watch the curbing on the outside of the T7 exit as this gets a little aggressive. 

first event of 2023, so first (of what I hope is many) opportunities to critique me and offer some sage advice.  Upgrades this winter include a Garmin Catalyst and more importantly a simulator at home to practice my favorite tracks...  I found ~2 seconds due to the simulator, the garmin i forgot to press start on the first session and the 3rd session went slower than the second...  Anyway here is the lap, a 1:43 which isn't very fast (regional TT folks are all sub 1:40) and I would guess the car can do 37s if not quicker...  

So from the standpoint of a armchair QB:

I notice you don't use the curbs at all; do they upset the car?

Your leaving a good foot of margin on every corner exit. Nothing wrong with this from a cautionary standpoint but time wise I'd bet it amounts to a couple of seconds a lap.

At this point to find more time I'd need to ride along with you. I'd recommend getting a coach or instructor to ride along in an effort to eek out those last little bits.

You also seem to be "polite" with the car; nothing wrong with this either but I suspect you could be a touch more aggressive.

WORD OF CAUTION a bit more aggressive doesn't mean full send.......it just means eeking out little bits here and there. Maybe brake a foot later, letting the car drift out to the exit curb a few more inches etc.

Overall you look super smooth and predictable.....well done.

Tom1200 said:

So from the standpoint of a armchair QB:

I notice you don't use the curbs at all; do they upset the car?

Your leaving a good foot of margin on every corner exit. Nothing wrong with this from a cautionary standpoint but time wise I'd bet it amounts to a couple of seconds a lap.

At this point to find more time I'd need to ride along with you. I'd recommend getting a coach or instructor to ride along in an effort to eek out those last little bits.

You also seem to be "polite" with the car; nothing wrong with this either but I suspect you could be a touch more aggressive.

WORD OF CAUTION a bit more aggressive doesn't mean full send.......it just means eeking out little bits here and there. Maybe brake a foot later, letting the car drift out to the exit curb a few more inches etc.

Overall you look super smooth and predictable.....well done.

Thank you for the kind words, it has been a journey and while I was hoping to go faster (don't we always) I am also happy that I am 2 seconds faster than last year.  

As for leaving room on corner exit, is the time found by using more track to gain corner exit speed? 

I was looking at the lap and comparing it to the simulator (ACC south has been laser scanned and I have a model similar to my car) and I notice my braking points are later in the simulator compared to the real track and when they are later I am also not trail braking into the corner (the G-meter goes back to the center long before the car turns.  

How do you suck at an HPDE event?  The point of it is the "E"  

dean1484 said:

How do you suck at an HPDE event?  The point of it is the "E"  

haha, touche...  when I made this thread a year+ ago I had made a thread about autocross (which is something that I am eternally bad at) and was looking for some tips/tricks...  At this point the thread is more about the journey for improvement...  Since last July I have found 2 seconds of improvement at the same track (ACC South) and think that if I can get more time there another 2+ seconds is well within my grasp.  

Can the catalyst output a total G-G plot of the lap? Watching the G meter through the lap, your "traction circle" seems more like a  "traction diamond", if that makes sense. Combined inputs (trail braking and throttle application as soon as you're past peak cornering) is probably where the rest of your time is. That blended input region is where modern performance tires really excel, you can probably get away with a lot more than you'd expect.  There's also a couple of times in the middle of the lap where the transition between braking end and turning start is so distinct that the G trace nearly passes through the center of the graph; that's probably a big chunk of the time just in that corner or two. It's possible that it's really a car issue more than a driver issue, in which case making some setup changes to make the car more comfortable with blended inputs would go a long way.

dps214 said:

Can the catalyst output a total G-G plot of the lap? Watching the G meter through the lap, your "traction circle" seems more like a  "traction diamond", if that makes sense. Combined inputs (trail braking and throttle application as soon as you're past peak cornering) is probably where the rest of your time is. That blended input region is where modern performance tires really excel, you can probably get away with a lot more than you'd expect.  There's also a couple of times in the middle of the lap where the transition between braking end and turning start is so distinct that the G trace nearly passes through the center of the graph; that's probably a big chunk of the time just in that corner or two. It's possible that it's really a car issue more than a driver issue, in which case making some setup changes to make the car more comfortable with blended inputs would go a long way.

like this? i don't really know how to read these:

ClearWaterMS said:

Thank you for the kind words, it has been a journey and while I was hoping to go faster (don't we always) I am also happy that I am 2 seconds faster than last year.  

As for leaving room on corner exit, is the time found by using more track to gain corner exit speed? 

Yes and you're also likely over slowing the car because of this. 

If you have a foot of room on the exit you can pick up the throttle sooner and or more rapidly. You have to chip away at it to find what's right.

The over slowing partially relates to the exits and to "perhaps" needing to polish up on trail braking. This partly is why I suggested getting a coach. At this point any extra speed is going to be down to adding inches everywhere.

There's a ton of speed to be had via mastering trail braking; it's main advantage is allowing you to rotate the car more quickly and smoothly, which in turn allows you to get the most out of all four tires at the same time. 

For you next event working on releasing the brake pedal at the same rate you turn the steering wheel; this will likely add the momentum that will carry you out to the exit curb.

ClearWaterMS said:

dps214 said:

Can the catalyst output a total G-G plot of the lap? Watching the G meter through the lap, your "traction circle" seems more like a  "traction diamond", if that makes sense. Combined inputs (trail braking and throttle application as soon as you're past peak cornering) is probably where the rest of your time is. That blended input region is where modern performance tires really excel, you can probably get away with a lot more than you'd expect.  There's also a couple of times in the middle of the lap where the transition between braking end and turning start is so distinct that the G trace nearly passes through the center of the graph; that's probably a big chunk of the time just in that corner or two. It's possible that it's really a car issue more than a driver issue, in which case making some setup changes to make the car more comfortable with blended inputs would go a long way.

like this? i don't really know how to read these:

No, it would basically be the plot in the lower right corner of the video, but showing a complete trace of the entire lap all at once.