HPDE Tire Selection - E36 Track Rat - Budget Friendly

For the last two years, I've been running a set of 16" 225 Toyo RA1s. I bought them used (cheap), no idea as to history, but they appeared lightly used, but I'm guessing they had been sitting a couple of years.  I flat spotted one badly the last week last year at VIR, and those were at end of life anyway.

Car is an E36 Sedan, mostly stock drivetrain, Bilstein M3 Sports, Eibach Race Springs, swapped M3 hats, larger sways, HT10 pads, brake ducts, etc.  Roll-bar, fixed back seats, 6 points.  The two future improvements will be S52 cams, and an M3 LSD.  Its a low-buck track rat, lots of fun for the money.    The car is street legal, and will be driven to the track.  I tow a small tire trailer and have a set of cheap street tires for the road.

I have been running C group, with BMWCCA, but just promoted to B Group.  Not fast, but consistent and safe.  

My usual instructor think's I should go back to street tires, so he can help me work on turning the car with the throttle (over-steer).    I'm not 100% on board with that yet.

Requirements:

1. Get 6-8 weekends out of a set (two years)

2. Be appropriate for my skill-set, provide audible and touch feedback

3.  Be track-rat / low budget friendly.  I'm not worried about shaving fractions of a second off my lap times.  The idiot behind the wheel is the limiting factor still.  Frankly, I'd buy a used set, but haven't come across anything suitable locally yet. 

4.  Fit on a set of 17" rims I have setting in the shop.

5.  Not require flares.  A bit of fender roll would be acceptable.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Glenn

What diameter tire do you need?

245/40/17 Hankook RS4s. They are popular with the lemons / chump crowd and are probably pretty similar to your unknown heat cycle ra1's performance wise.

pimpm3 said:

245/40/17 Hankook RS4s. They are popular with the lemons / chump crowd and are probably pretty similar to your unknown heat cycle ra1's performance wise.

Thanks.  Very helpful.  Those are about $150 ea. at Tire-rack.  Not too bad.  Think they'll require a fender roll?

red_stapler said:

What diameter tire do you need?

The rims I planned to use are 17"x7.5", ET41

wake74 said:

pimpm3 said:

245/40/17 Hankook RS4s. They are popular with the lemons / chump crowd and are probably pretty similar to your unknown heat cycle ra1's performance wise.

Thanks.  Very helpful.  Those are about $150 ea. at Tire-rack.  Not too bad.  Think they'll require a fender roll?

Nope.  I ran that size on my 98 M3/4/5 on a square set of 17x8.5 DSII wheels, car was lowered on Dinan suspension, never any issues on track, autoX or street. 

They fit without rubbing on my 1998 m3 sedan.  I am running eibach pro kit springs and konis.  Haven't run them on track yet, my next track day is in February.

They are mounted to 17x8 et 41 wheels

Thanks for the confirmation that the 245s will fit!

pimpm3 said:

245/40/17 Hankook RS4s. They are popular with the lemons / chump crowd and are probably pretty similar to your unknown heat cycle ra1's performance wise.

+1, was just about to recommend these.

Federal 595RS-R and RS-RR will be the least expensive track-worthy tires that you can get new.  They come in a just shy of million sizes too.

The rsr and rsrr was going to be my rec, ive heard alot of good things from this forum about them.

In reply to wake74 :

The question was TIRE diameter not wheel.

Note that today's 200 treadwear-class autox cheater tires (RS4, RE-71R, etc) have at least as much maximum grip as RA1s, if not slightly more so.  So if you want a lower grip tire to experiment with throttle-induced oversteer, that's probably not the right choice.

IMHO, though, it's tough to beat RA1s or NT01s in terms of track miles per dollar.

FSP_ZX2 said:

Federal 595RS-R and RS-RR will be the least expensive track-worthy tires that you can get new.  They come in a just shy of million sizes too.

 

Interestingly, the 595RS-RR or 595RS-R are not available in a 245/40/17.  On Federals web-site that size is marked as NA.  Both types are available in 235/40/17.  About $110 / tire for either of them.

codrus said:

Note that today's 200 treadwear-class autox cheater tires (RS4, RE-71R, etc) have at least as much maximum grip as RA1s, if not slightly more so.  So if you want a lower grip tire to experiment with throttle-induced oversteer, that's probably not the right choice.

IMHO, though, it's tough to beat RA1s or NT01s in terms of track miles per dollar.

 

It's an on going conversation.  I may just tell him, I'll put the cheap, no-name street tires that came with the car when I bought it on there for throttle over-steer lessons.    RA1s skip a 245 size as well in 17".  RA1s in 235/40/17 are about $220.  Ditto the NT01s, no 245/40/17, and those are running $180 / tire.

Thanks for the additional suggestions!

245 is waaaayyyyy too wide for a 7.5 inch wheel.  205 is about perfect.  We run 225 on an 8 inch wheel.

As testing has confirmed, a 225 or 205 will be faster on that width wheel...

The RS4 cant even really be mentioned in the same sentence as the Rival S and RE-71R when talking about Cheater tires, at least those other 2 are more like bubblegum. @pimpn3 dont suppose you are doing the 2 day at VIR in feb?

Jaynen said:

The RS4 cant even really be mentioned in the same sentence as the Rival S and RE-71R when talking about Cheater tires, at least those other 2 are more like bubblegum. @pimpn3 dont suppose you are doing the 2 day at VIR in feb?

Can you elaborate on the comparison above?  They are all listed as 200 TW tires, and range from about $150-$190 each. Thanks!

I'm pondering the Tarheel event in February.  I usually run with the BMWCCA at VIR, but I'm going to miss their opener Easter weekend.

Rival S and RE-71R are geared towards the autocross and TT crowd, great for a few hot laps but they aren't known for holding up long term. The RS-4 has a reputation for needing a bit more time to warm up but giving nice consistent performance while still being durable. I'm running a set of 225/50R16 on 16x8 wheels on my ~3000 lbs E28 with the same requirements you are looking at, so far I am very happy.

Adam

Based on your requirements for something that will work with slip angles, I’d go with the Indy 500s for $100 apiece.  Mine were at half tread after ~70 autocross runs, one HPDE session, and about 5000 street miles.

They’re competent enough that you won’t  be too frustrated, and they wear like RA1s so you should be able to get 2 seasons out of them - unlike the 200tw autocross tires that are more of a one lap hero sort of tire.

Get the rs4.  You will not regret it.  They wear like iron and stick almost as well as the rival s or re71 on track.

At autocross, I would pick a different tire, but for track work, the rs4 is the best tire to have for your requirements.

wake74 said:

Jaynen said:

The RS4 cant even really be mentioned in the same sentence as the Rival S and RE-71R when talking about Cheater tires, at least those other 2 are more like bubblegum. @pimpn3 dont suppose you are doing the 2 day at VIR in feb?

Can you elaborate on the comparison above?  They are all listed as 200 TW tires, and range from about $150-$190 each. Thanks!

I'm pondering the Tarheel event in February.  I usually run with the BMWCCA at VIR, but I'm going to miss their opener Easter weekend.

So in autocross, SCCA mandated that tired be 200TW or higher for "street" tire classes. Since tread wear rating is entirely at the discretion of the manufacturer a few manufacturers made super soft super sticky tires and became dominant in competition for autocross. A fast autocross tire heats up very quickly and has a lot of grip for a short amount of time. Not necessarily the best for extended track lapping. The RS4 is more of a "true" 200TW tire which is what I would call the normal extreme/max performance summer tire, where as RC-1s or NT-01s are getting into more of a technically DOT legal tire but not one you really want to be driving on the street.

The RS4 is a go to tire as mentioned by others in endurance racing so you know its built to handle the abuse of being on a car for a longer time. It will still be fine for Autocross you just will probably be slower than someone in Rival S/RE71R but honestly if you are new it wont be the tires anyway

In terms of what your instructor said, I definitely would not buy a set of tires based on that. You'll be over it within 1-2 track days at best. If he's adamant about it pick up someone's used set on a different set of rims cheap and sell them off after. You do learn a lot driving a car on crappier tires but I think you learn more at an autocross on in the rain in that regard than less sticky tires on the track. Likely the old RA1s were worse actually than almost any performance summer tire at this point.

Jaynen said:

So in autocross, SCCA mandated that tired be 200TW or higher for "street" tire classes. Since tread wear rating is entirely at the discretion of the manufacturer a few manufacturers made super soft super sticky tires and became dominant in competition for autocross. A fast autocross tire heats up very quickly and has a lot of grip for a short amount of time. Not necessarily the best for extended track lapping. The RS4 is more of a "true" 200TW tire which is what I would call the normal extreme/max performance summer tire, where as RC-1s or NT-01s are getting into more of a technically DOT legal tire but not one you really want to be driving on the street.

Thanks for the detailed response.  Much appreciated!

The RE-71 is a sticky tire with a ton of grip. We ran a set in a WRL endurance race, after 5 hours we destroyed 2 of them. Had a similar experience with the Rivals. We get better wear from Star Spec ll and RS4’s. 

It appears the RS4s are out of stock in the 245/17 size, at least at Tire Rack and the other places that popped up in a quick search.  I normally just order from TR so I don't have much experience with the other online retailers.

Any thoughts on other stores that I should check with for availability?