Hybrid diesel?

I always wondered why hybrid diesels don't exist.

Thoughts?

EPA CARB

Greenies

• Lee

The improved efficiency seems like an obvious win, and in the series-hybrid arrangement like a Volt the narrow powerband would be a non-issue. Heck, even in a parallel (Prius-style) arrangement the electrics would probably alleviate the peakiness (is it still peakiness when the narrow powerband is at half the rpm?)

The most plausible argument I've heard (as far as my addled memory says) is that for an engine that's only run sporadically, the additional cost of a diesel isn't worth it.

This has been covered before....look at what VW or M-B charge as a "premium" for buying a diesel vs gasoline powered version of their cars. It's usually in the neighborhood of $1200-$1500, ADD in the cost of the hybrid (on Fords and Toyotas about $2000-$2500) and you now have a VERY expensive powertrain.

THEN, there's the "fact" that diesel powered cars have been off the radar of product planners and car buyers (except for folks like us) for DECADES. WHY sure, I'll bet that given the choice of spending $22,000 on a 4 cylinder/automatic Fusion or Malibu, John Q. Public would gladly fork over nearly $30,000 for a diesel/hybrid Fusion.

BTW, go to FordDirect.com and look at what Fusion hybrids "retail" for....most are at $30,000 tho some sticker for less than that.

Hybrid diesels do exist, look to the trucking industry. There are thousands of them on the road, I bet you've seen them and didn't even know it, from UPS to FedEx to Coke and even utility companies, they're all over.

Bryce

integraguy wrote: THEN, there's the "fact" that diesel powered cars have been off the radar of product planners and car buyers (except for folks like us) for DECADE.

Only in the US, though. Turbodiesel cars are very popular in most of Europe, thanks to the much higher fuel costs. In places like France they do make an awful lot of sense given that outside the major cities you're driving almost as much as here in the US for your daily "chores".

I vaguely remember some comments that a lot of the diesel engineers still think there's more efficiency to be gained from tweaking the engines and that the added weight and complexity of the hybrid drivetrain wouldn't actually add that much in the way of mpg as diesels tend to be very efficient at part throttle anyway.

One of the biggest reasons why diesel is so popular in Europe is that it is priced MUCH lower than gasoline. In the U.S. it is now more expensive than gasoline, and will probably stay that way as / or if, more diesel cars are sold here.

When I gassed up this weekend, I almost put the diesel nozzle in my gas tank...the station I go to has the diesel and gas nozzles at opposite ends of each pump. I didn't notice how much more diesel was, but suspect it is at least as expensive as 89 or 91 octance gas.

Considering all the fast food that is fried in this country, it's a shame that ethanol has/had? a subsidy, and veggie-diesel conversions/veggie-diesel fuel isn't more encouraged.

We have about 1700 diesel hybrids

Cool! Why not in passenger cars then?

Most Diesel trains are actually hybrids if I'm not mistaken.

Train locomotives use the diesel engine to drive a generator that produces electricity that runs motors to drive the wheels. Not really a hybrid like a Prius, just a diesel electric drive train. That's my understanding anyway.

bigdaddylee82 wrote: EPA CARB Greenies - Lee

So what you are saying is that you would rather use less fuel than breath clean air, then.

Taiden wrote: Cool! Why not in passenger cars then?

Cost: benefit

And how that translates into sales.

can it be done? with 100% certainty, you can have a PZEV diesel in a hybrid car. The real question is- does it make economic sense? And that question applies to both the consumer and the manufacturer. Does a diesel hybrid deliver that much more economy that it's worth while for you to buy? And can an manufacturer make a diesel hybrid for that cost?

Very hard questions to answer yes to.

T.J. wrote: Train locomotives use the diesel engine to drive a generator that produces electricity that runs motors to drive the wheels. Not really a hybrid like a Prius, just a diesel electric drive train. That's my understanding anyway.

The locomotives are almost a serial hybrid type design - unlike hybrid cars, though, they usually don't use regenerative braking. I've heard there are designs on the drawing board that do this, but getting a regenerative braking battery pack in without making the locomotive too heavy has been a challenge.

integraguy wrote: One of the biggest reasons why diesel is so popular in Europe is that it is priced MUCH lower than gasoline. In the U.S. it is now more expensive than gasoline, and will probably stay that way as / or if, more diesel cars are sold here.

That depends on the country - for example, in Germany Diesel is cheaper, but the vehicle taxes on a Diesel engined car are much higher. In the UK, Diesel is the most expensive fuel, usual as expensive or more expensive than 98/99RON gas, but the vehicle taxes are the same or lower than on a gas engined car. In most cases the break-even point is if you drive around 10k miles/year, and that's becoming more and more common in Europe. When I started driving in the late 80s in Germany, the average miles/year were around the 6k mark, that's gone up significantly.

If I did have the nerve for another car (which I don't), I'd probably seek out a Mercedes 300SD/350SD - I've got a biofuels station on my way to work that sells Biodiesel in various mixes and for my commute during the cold season a transport appliance that doesn't use a lot of fuel would work well unless the snow hits.

I think integraguy is right, and I've heard that cited by others. Incredible powertrain costs, marginal market.

UPS has their diesel/hydraulic hybrid, which is simpler and more efficient than an electric setup -- and likely cheaper. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q1/a_hybrid_that_has_no_batteries-column

Scaling down for passenger applications and reducing noise were said to be the first big issues, but it looks like Chrysler's making a serious effort at it. This one's not a diesel though. http://blog.caranddriver.com/chrysler-and-the-epa-partner-to-develop-hydraulic-hybrid-minivan-powertrain/

Alan Cesar wrote: Scaling down for passenger applications and reducing noise were said to be the first big issues, but it looks like Chrysler's making a serious effort at it. This one's not a diesel though. http://blog.caranddriver.com/chrysler-and-the-epa-partner-to-develop-hydraulic-hybrid-minivan-powertrain/

Interesting. I remember years ago Ford was working with the EPA on a hydraulic hybrid as well.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

T.J. wrote: Train locomotives use the diesel engine to drive a generator that produces electricity that runs motors to drive the wheels. Not really a hybrid like a Prius, just a diesel electric drive train. That's my understanding anyway.

The locomotives are almost a serial hybrid type design - unlike hybrid cars, though, they usually don't use regenerative braking. I've heard there are designs on the drawing board that do this, but getting a regenerative braking battery pack in without making the locomotive too heavy has been a challenge.

Locomotives aren't really hybrids in the sense that the diesel engine cannot directly drive the locomotive, it turns the generator, only the electric motors drive it. They kinda use a regenerative braking, but they don't store the power. It's a dynamic braking system where the electric motors generate electricity to heat grids at the top of the locomotive, thus helping slow down the train. More here: http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/engines-equipment/diesel-locomotive9.htm

look at what VW or M-B charge as a "premium" for buying a diesel vs gasoline powered version of their cars.

Much of this cost comes from the fact that the engines are built in europe at euro labor costs and then shipped halfway across the world.

If the USA was a bigger passenger diesel market we would have more indigenous diesel production (although we have scads of it for commerical vehicles). The prices would drop accordingly. Would it ever be cheaper than a gas engine? It seems doubtful.

Diesel used to be way cheaper than gas, until Katrina. Then the free market (i.e. the refiners) decided that didnt need to be true anymore.

Vigo wrote:

look at what VW or M-B charge as a "premium" for buying a diesel vs gasoline powered version of their cars.

Much of this cost comes from the fact that the engines are built in europe at euro labor costs and then shipped halfway across the world. If the USA was a bigger passenger diesel market we would have more indigenous diesel production (although we have scads of it for commerical vehicles). The prices would drop accordingly. Would it ever be cheaper than a gas engine? It seems doubtful. Diesel used to be way cheaper than gas, until Katrina. Then the free market (i.e. the refiners) decided that didnt need to be true anymore.

there's a lot more in the base diesel engine + the emissions controls than most people seem to think. Very expensive.

They charge a premium because they have to.

The diesel supply is very much determined by the political environment. In Europe there are various tax incentives for diesels. This is because European countries are very focused on carbon emissions and diesels have low carbon emissions (because they get better mileage; less fuel burned = less carbon emitted). In the USA we have no tax incentive for diesels.

Also, and also very importantly, the US EPA has much more strict particulate emissions standards. It's technologically difficult and expensive for diesels to meet the particulate requirements. Pickup trucks have separate standards so that's why we have diesel pickups. VW came up with very sophisticated technology to allow the 2007 TDI to meet particulate emission requirements without urea injection. Mercedes' Bluetech system requires urea injection, and I think one of the pickups is using this.

Since the US system lacks diesel incentives AND layers on additional emission requirements, diesels are a difficult proposition in the USA. I think this is the reason we got gas-electric hybrids instead. Personally I would rather buy a turbodiesel than a hybrid.

Bottom line, the legal/political environment is very different in the USA than in Europe.

Disclosure: I did the dealer introduction of the then-new 2007 TDI for Volkswagen. Most of my information is thus now four years old and possibly out-of-date.

David

No, you are still correct.

I used that info in a politics thread on another forum but i try not to bust it out unless i have to because some people are so retarded about politics that it CAN open up a big can of stupid.

But you are absolutely correct.

81cpcamaro wrote: Locomotives aren't really hybrids in the sense that the diesel engine cannot directly drive the locomotive, it turns the generator, only the electric motors drive it.

You can have hybrids where the engine is not connected to the wheels as long as you have enough generating and battery capacity. On our buses a small diesel engine, spins a generator and the wheels are only driven by the electric motor. Power is stored in a large Lithium Ion battery on the roof.

GE has also come out with a Hybrid Locomotie recently

GE Website said: The future of rail is just around the bend.How do you make a 4,400 horsepower locomotive more environmentally conscious? With pure ecomagination.GE engineers are designing a Hybrid diesel-electric locomotive that will capture the energy dissipated during braking and store it in a series of sophisticated batteries. That stored energy can be used by the crew on demand—reducing fuel consumption by as much as 15 percent and emissions by as much as 50 percent compared to most of the freight locomotives in use today. In addition to environmental advantages, a hybrid will operate more efficiently in higher altitudes and up steep inclines.

Local college kids built one about 2 years ago and it has been in service ever since. I got in by donating the original car (95 Ford Aspire) and tried to keep up with the changes and tech that they used.

Last time I looked they had a 2 cylinder turbo diesel that seemed to run on any sort of fuel, custom built electric generator/motor with a stupifying array of electronic controls for shifting power usages and such. Often it ran for weeks without ever using the diesel engine due to solar charging stations at the school.

I think the only original parts left are some of the steering stuff and main body on the "practical" car. they also have a test bed car that is just looks like a steam punk Moon Rover that for all I know runs on Wal-Mart sacks and dirty diapers.

These guys have access to tools that, if asked, could probably build a battleship.....(envy!).

Bruce

Bruce, what school?