Hybrid repeat buyers

I'm watching the long-term gas price trends, as well. If gas goes from say $4 a gallon to $5 a gallon, what might seem like an insignificant difference now could become more significant over time. When it comes time to replace my DD (400+ miles per week), I'm thinking of going for what makes the most financial sense from a cost and operating cost perspective, even if it means sacrificing some driving enjoyment. An appliance would work well for my commute, and then I could always pick up something fun for non-DD use.

Of course, I'm guessing any vehicle replacement is a few years out, so that could all change

Otto Maddox wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote:

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to ProDarwin: In my personal situation, going from a Pilot to a Prius will save us close to $3K a year. That is some big bucks.

Going from a Pilot to a conservatively driven Corvette would save you about $2000. This is why I think the current hybrid market isn't really all that hot.

Now that is just silly. The parameters were all city driving and an auto transmission. That would be 16 MPG in her Pilot and 15 MPG in a new Corvette.

Fine, something that gets 25 mpg. That includes a lot of very, very nice cars.

Nashco wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote: The basic problem I see is that batteries suck, and, objectively, we can't do much more with them now than we could 100 years ago. See my 1912 Baker Coupe comparison.

You are so far off from reality I can't tell if you're being serious or not. If you are not, well, use a winky face or something. If you are...consider the speed, reliability, cost, acceleration, driveability, legislation, frequency of use, safety, user friendliness, serviceability, etc. etc. etc. differences between a car 100 years ago and today. New cars go much faster, more reliably, for less money, get there quicker, have extremely long warranty periods, are used way more often, are extremely safe, are nearly idiot proof, can be serviced at hundreds of locations, etc. etc. etc. compared to 100 years ago. Just comparing a 20 year old battery (EV1) to a modern battery (Volt), there's leaps forward. Bryce

The electric cars of 1912 had almost the exact same problems, relative to ICE competitors, that they do now. Namely, in 1912 they were twice the price of a comparable ICE competitor - about where we are today. They had limited range - 80 to 110 miles in 1912 - not far from today. They were much heavier than a comparable ICE car - the exact same problem they have today.

However much leaping there is, and I'm sure there is a lot, the EV1 could drive around 70-140 miles on a charge. The Volt can drive approximately 35 miles in EV mode. So what I'm saying is - where's the payoff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9vC3S8MJPY http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/electric/chevy-volt-range-tests

Use as little battery as possible, use a fuel cell and capacitors instead, and then the electric car jumps ahead of the ICE car, IMO.

ProDarwin wrote: Yes, I would pay more to get more. Coleman's car is an oddball in that its an incredibly unsafe (by today's standards) early 80s rabbit, and his "80 mpg" claim is steady state on the highway, where many cars will return crazy mpg numbers. It wouldn't surprise me to see a Prius driver meet or exceed his city driving numbers - in a safer, more comfortable, quieter, more reliable car.

All true. The thing I think people forget is that, in terms of cost, that 80 mpg isn't much of a savings over your Prius. It's not worth the effort.

Take that same 100 mile trip I keep mentioning. You save something in the neighborhood of .6 gallons by driving Dave's deathtrap. Ask me if I will pay $2.40 extra for the privilege of upgrading to a Prius and I will tell you absolutely yes.

MPG is a case of SEVERELY diminishing returns, which is why I am sort of amused by all the consternation people feel about going from a 40 mpg car to a 50 mpg car. I'll pay two extra dollars if it gets me out of something miserable and into something nice.

Not driving a truck/SUV and getting into almost ANY car will make so much more of an improvement than going from a normal car to a hyper-efficient fuel sipper.

A 30 mpg improvement, going from 50 mpg to 80 mpg, means much less in real terms than the 2 mpg improvement you get from going from 10 to 12 mpg.

I think MPG is a deceptive statistic for this reason.

DaveEstey wrote: The TDI and Prius are a couple hundred dollars apart in price.

Two grand, actually. Jetta TDI base price is 22k. The Prius starts at 24k.

Otto Maddox wrote: The wife does 17,500 miles at 16 MPG average, the exact city EPA rating. At $4 a gallon, that is $4,375 a year in gas. By the city rating of 51 MPG in a Prius, that would be $1,373, saving me $3,002. To me, that is huge. A Jetta Wagon TDi offers 29 MPG city with more expensive fuel. At 40 cents more a gallon for diesel, I'd spend $2,655 and save $1,720. So, a Prius would save me $1,282 over a Jetta Sportswagen TDi. That is still some decent scratch.

Wow, I pay the same price for 89 octane as diesel in Nevada.

DaewooOfDeath wrote: All true. The thing I think people forget is that, in terms of cost, that 80 mpg isn't much of a savings over your Prius. It's not worth the effort. Take that same 100 mile trip I keep mentioning. You save something in the neighborhood of .6 gallons by driving Dave's deathtrap. Ask me if I will pay $2.40 extra for the privilege of upgrading to a Prius and I will tell you absolutely yes.

Again, maybe to you it is not, but to me $1000+/yr and climbing is significant. That's almost what I spend on insurance. That's double my cell phone bill. That's more than 30% of the purchase price of my DD. You can't look at everything in 100 mile trips. Its easy to justify the cost to not drive a deathtrap anywhere, but much harder to justify when the vehicle that gets the better mileage is "boring" in the Hybrid vs. TDI scenario.

And again, that 80mpg figure was steady state highway @ 55mph - where you would easily see insane numbers from almost anything. It's apples to oranges to compare that with EPA highway mileage figures.

I really like how this is going. People are doing the math and having a pretty reasonable discussion.. In the context of 'hybrid threads', this is a grand success!

In reply to DaewooOfDeath:

The price of diesel used to vary a lot more here but has seemed to settle in to mimic the price of premium.

I am having cold feet about the Prius. My wife loves the idea of the great MPG more than anything. And she rode in a friend's Prius. It had navigation, a backup camera, voice recogntion stuff (like for the climate control), and various other fun doo-dads. My wife loves the Prius like she loves her Apple products. It isn't just the dollars and cents of it. On the other hand, I could pretty easily be talked in to a Sonata or something pretty easily.

In reply to DaewooOfDeath:

The Jetta TDI is 22,775 before the $750 delivery charge.

4-Door TDI Golf, which is a closer competitor to the Prius (4-door hatchback), is $24,935 before delivery charge.

ProDarwin wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote: All true. The thing I think people forget is that, in terms of cost, that 80 mpg isn't much of a savings over your Prius. It's not worth the effort. Take that same 100 mile trip I keep mentioning. You save something in the neighborhood of .6 gallons by driving Dave's deathtrap. Ask me if I will pay $2.40 extra for the privilege of upgrading to a Prius and I will tell you absolutely yes.

Again, maybe to you it is not, but to me $1000+/yr and climbing is significant. That's almost what I spend on insurance. That's double my cell phone bill. That's more than 30% of the purchase price of my DD. You can't look at everything in 100 mile trips. Its easy to justify the cost to not drive a deathtrap anywhere, but much harder to justify when the vehicle that gets the better mileage is "boring" in the Hybrid vs. TDI scenario. And again, that 80mpg figure was steady state highway @ 55mph - where you would easily see insane numbers from almost anything. It's apples to oranges to compare that with EPA highway mileage figures.

It's not just a difference in boring. It's a difference in comfort, highway driving, brakes, interior, practicality, steering and ease of driving.

If you find the EPA estimates for an early 80s Golf with a 5 year old 1.9tdi swapped in, I will be happy to use those figures. ;)

Supposedly that thing gets 50-60 mpg with an aggressive gear head driving around LA, which, again, is almost no difference in real terms with a Prius or a modern TDI.

Also, this bears mentioning, if you are driving huge mileages each year, and you must be commuting from San Fran to LA daily from the sounds of it, you could almost certainly make up most of the difference between the TDI and Prius by hypermiling. It's easy to do in a diesel or gasoline car, not so much with a constantly regenerating hybrid.

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to DaewooOfDeath: The price of diesel used to vary a lot more here but has seemed to settle in to mimic the price of premium. I am having cold feet about the Prius. My wife loves the idea of the great MPG more than anything. And she rode in a friend's Prius. It had navigation, a backup camera, voice recogntion stuff (like for the climate control), and various other fun doo-dads. My wife loves the Prius like she loves her Apple products. It isn't just the dollars and cents of it. On the other hand, I could pretty easily be talked in to a Sonata or something pretty easily.

This I completely understand. Driving a Prius C (and I assume a regular one as well) is like driving a spaceship. It's novel, it's fun, it's exciting. I really, really enjoyed my hour in the Prius C.

But, and this is a big but, it was objectively a horrible car. I used this analogy before, but to me a Prius is a lot like a Lamborghini Diablo. Probably more trouble than it's worth but so novel, weird and out there you don't care.

DaewooOfDeath wrote: Also, this bears mentioning, if you are driving huge mileages each year, and you must be commuting from San Fran to LA daily from the sounds of it, you could almost certainly make up most of the difference between the TDI and Prius by hypermiling. It's easy to do in a diesel or gasoline car, not so much with a constantly regenerating hybrid.

I do about 15k/year. I feel it is a pretty normal figure. About 6k of that is commuting.

Hypermiling can make a huge difference, I don't have the patience for anything serious. Some of those guys on eco-modder are nuts and will drive down the interstate at 50mph. I thought about doing that on a recent drive across the country (because my sister's Jetta only gets just over 30 on the highway), but then realized it would add ~15hours of driving to my trip!

That said, I feel like my driving is a good mix between smart and "time-efficient". I coast downhill to my house or to red lights so long as I don't interrupt the flow of traffic, and generally minimize the use of brakes and minimize the use of WOT.

DaewooOfDeath wrote: Also, this bears mentioning, if you are driving huge mileages each year, and you must be commuting from San Fran to LA daily from the sounds of it, you could almost certainly make up most of the difference between the TDI and Prius by hypermiling. It's easy to do in a diesel or gasoline car, not so much with a constantly regenerating hybrid.

So you're saying we should buy the "Better" car but drive it in a painful way to make up for it not being as good on gas.

Also, it's very easy to hypermile a hybrid, especially if you don't listen to the salesman and leave the car in engine braking mode.

ProDarwin wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote: Also, this bears mentioning, if you are driving huge mileages each year, and you must be commuting from San Fran to LA daily from the sounds of it, you could almost certainly make up most of the difference between the TDI and Prius by hypermiling. It's easy to do in a diesel or gasoline car, not so much with a constantly regenerating hybrid.

I do about 15k/year. I feel it is a pretty normal figure. About 6k of that is commuting. Hypermiling can make a huge difference, I don't have the patience for anything serious. Some of those guys on eco-modder are nuts and will drive down the interstate at 50mph. I thought about doing that on a recent drive across the country (because my sister's Jetta only gets just over 30 on the highway), but then realized it would add ~15hours of driving to my trip! That said, I feel like my driving is a good mix between smart and "time-efficient". I coast downhill to my house or to red lights so long as I don't interrupt the flow of traffic, and generally minimize the use of brakes and minimize the use of WOT.

15k a year makes 375 gallons at 40 mpg. It means 283 gallons at 53 mpg. That's like 350 bucks a year.

Maybe we use different techniques, but I pretty consistently beat EPA highway rates in mixed driving and I don't drive slowly. Use lots of heavy throttle at low rpm when accelerating (ie, a shift point of 1600-2k rpm in my motorswapped Daewoo, 1800 rpm in the auto 528e I'm driving in the states). It's a myth you get the best mileage by using super light throttle application. Most engines are most efficient at low rpm and high load because of pumping and frictional losses. Stay well behind the guy in front coming up to a stop light. I can keep rolling at about half the red lights I come across simply by looking far ahead on the road (this can actually make your commute faster in addition to more economical). I do 65 mph on the highway in the US or 110 km/h in Korea. Use lots of engine braking, as this will actually turn the injectors completely off in a lot of EFI cars.

The nice thing about this is it results in killer economy - I did a rock solid 40 mpg in my 88 Civic Sedan, I do 28-30 in the BMW, pulled 22-24 mpg in a V8 Mercury Mountaineer - and you don't have to drive slowly.

DaveEstey wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote: Also, this bears mentioning, if you are driving huge mileages each year, and you must be commuting from San Fran to LA daily from the sounds of it, you could almost certainly make up most of the difference between the TDI and Prius by hypermiling. It's easy to do in a diesel or gasoline car, not so much with a constantly regenerating hybrid.

So you're saying we should buy the "Better" car but drive it in a painful way to make up for it not being as good on gas. Also, it's very easy to hypermile a hybrid, especially if you don't listen to the salesman and leave the car in engine braking mode.

See above. I don't suffer any pain at all in my hypermiling efforts.

Even in regular D mode, the Prius I drove had a ton of regen braking. Seriously screwed up my attempts to coast to red lights. I also couldn't do the high load/low rpm thing I do in most cars. This wouldn't be a problem with a stick shift or conventional auto hybrid, to be fair.

I get 31 overall in my beater. I have a conventional automatic, so my ability to stay at low RPM high load is limited, as is my ability to engine brake. I have 2 stop lights and 9 traffic lights in my ~11 mile commute. If I am lucky, I can get through maybe one of them without coming to a complete stop. In the evening there is usually at least 1 that I have to sit through multiple cycles. A new Prius would get approx 50mpg in this commute.

At 15k miles, thats $1983 for the Saturn, $1230 for the Prius. So not quite $1000, but still significant. There is a reason I purchased what I did. With a 1G Prius/early 2G or Civic Hybrid (mid 40s MPG) the payoff would be approx 3 years out, but I rarely keep cars that long. I'll be looking more closely at one for my next DD.

And FWIW, no need to do high load/low RPM in the Prius. Its an Atkinson cycle engine connected to a CVT. Pretty much anywhere but idle it operates at max efficiency.

DaewooOfDeath wrote:

ProDarwin wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote: Also, this bears mentioning, if you are driving huge mileages each year, and you must be commuting from San Fran to LA daily from the sounds of it, you could almost certainly make up most of the difference between the TDI and Prius by hypermiling. It's easy to do in a diesel or gasoline car, not so much with a constantly regenerating hybrid.

I do about 15k/year. I feel it is a pretty normal figure. About 6k of that is commuting. Hypermiling can make a huge difference, I don't have the patience for anything serious. Some of those guys on eco-modder are nuts and will drive down the interstate at 50mph. I thought about doing that on a recent drive across the country (because my sister's Jetta only gets just over 30 on the highway), but then realized it would add ~15hours of driving to my trip! That said, I feel like my driving is a good mix between smart and "time-efficient". I coast downhill to my house or to red lights so long as I don't interrupt the flow of traffic, and generally minimize the use of brakes and minimize the use of WOT.

15k a year makes 375 gallons at 40 mpg. It means 283 gallons at 53 mpg. That's like 350 bucks a year. Maybe we use different techniques, but I pretty consistently beat EPA highway rates in mixed driving and I don't drive slowly. Use lots of heavy throttle at low rpm when accelerating (ie, a shift point of 1600-2k rpm in my motorswapped Daewoo, 1800 rpm in the auto 528e I'm driving in the states). It's a myth you get the best mileage by using super light throttle application. Most engines are most efficient at low rpm and high load because of pumping and frictional losses. Stay well behind the guy in front coming up to a stop light. I can keep rolling at about half the red lights I come across simply by looking far ahead on the road (this can actually make your commute faster in addition to more economical). I do 65 mph on the highway in the US or 110 km/h in Korea. Use lots of engine braking, as this will actually turn the injectors completely off in a lot of EFI cars. The nice thing about this is it results in killer economy - I did a rock solid 40 mpg in my 88 Civic Sedan, I do 28-30 in the BMW, pulled 22-24 mpg in a V8 Mercury Mountaineer - and you don't have to drive slowly.

DaveEstey wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote: Also, this bears mentioning, if you are driving huge mileages each year, and you must be commuting from San Fran to LA daily from the sounds of it, you could almost certainly make up most of the difference between the TDI and Prius by hypermiling. It's easy to do in a diesel or gasoline car, not so much with a constantly regenerating hybrid.

So you're saying we should buy the "Better" car but drive it in a painful way to make up for it not being as good on gas. Also, it's very easy to hypermile a hybrid, especially if you don't listen to the salesman and leave the car in engine braking mode.

See above. I don't suffer any pain at all in my hypermiling efforts. Even in regular D mode, the Prius I drove had a ton of regen braking. Seriously screwed up my attempts to coast to red lights. I also couldn't do the high load/low rpm thing I do in most cars. This wouldn't be a problem with a stick shift or conventional auto hybrid, to be fair.

You're consistently overlooking the fact that you had the car in B mode, which is forcing engine braking. All Prii can and will coast without any battery regen if you use your foot smartly. It takes all of a couple days driving around to completely master.

You can also drive with load just fine, which is how I drive ours on the highway all the time. I recently averaged 53 mpg on a trip to Vermont, which combined two Prius weak points: highway mileage and hills.

In reply to DaveEstey: I tried it in both B and D and it would come down from speed very quickly in either mode. I'll take your word for it that other/older Prius models will coast. The one I drove didn't want to. It was more aggressive in B, but it still slowed quicker than anything else I've driven when coasting in D mode. I'm not the only one who has made this observation, btw. Car and Driver said some very similar things.

I think it was bobzilla who knocked down 47 mpg in a new Elantra on a similar trip, btw.

I'm not saying hybrids are bad (in fact I love the idea behind the Volt). I'm saying that unless you are doing a ton of city driving in really bad congestion, the cost differences aren't that big and probably aren't worth the trade offs.

I just bought an '05 Prius for my wife. I paid $9500. She loves it for the novelty factor and all the gadgets (you can set the climate control temperature by voice, for instance). It should save us approximately $200 a month in gas.