Forgive me if this is a repost. Just saw this article about the new Hybrid Turbo systems being used by F1. Can't wait for these to go mainstream. This is a simply brilliant concept that I can see all kinds of applications for.
http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/f1s-hybrid-turbos-are-awesome-and-you-want-one-in-you-1464497196
First info I've seen detailing the system, although I figured out how it works from the description of TERS.
It'll be amazing to see what efficiency (and therefore power) gains could be possible with this tech. All the energy wasted in boost control could be recaptured, and of course lag will be obliterated.
oh an actual electric turbo. I thought this was going to be a thread about mixing turbo parts or something. Seems like a supercharger and turbo in one thing almost. One of these would be great for a 4agte project.
this technology will make 600cc engines viable and fun to drive in subcompact cars within the next 10 years.
Ford has hybrid turbos. 
Between the heat that's going to be poured into the electric section from the hot side and the tolerances required for that motor to operate at >100k RPM, I bet that won't be cheap. Still, that would be the perfect solution for a big turbo on the RX-7 :)
It seems to me that this type of turbo would only have an advantage over something like a variable Geometry Turbo in hybrid applications where they can use it to change the battery pack.
Now that I think about it more, how often are waste gates open during cruise? Not very often, no? So the whole line in the jalopnik article about using these turbos to charge batteries during cruise doesn't hold water.
bgkast wrote: Now that I think about it more, how often are waste gates open during cruise? Not very often, no? So the whole line in the jalopnik article about using these turbos to charge batteries during cruise doesn't hold water.
The wording was poor, as it will regen only after excel and under braking. Left foot brake for maximum return
iceracer wrote: Ford has hybrid turbos.
Of this electric type? On which engines/vehicles? That's tantalizing...
Armitage wrote: Between the heat that's going to be poured into the electric section from the hot side and the tolerances required for that motor to operate at >100k RPM, I bet that won't be cheap.
I was thinking the same after reading the article. This thing is going to be stupid expensive.
Also, useless in a production car that's not an electric hybrid.
Should be great on a hybrid racecar though.
captdownshift wrote: this technology will make 600cc engines viable and fun to drive in subcompact cars within the next 10 years.
See: Trabant
Not useless...
NO MORE LAG
The point is to recover energy out of the exhaust more oftent. It's actually pretty easy to find a situation where the cruise load is high enough to make some boost. It happens all the time- IF you could open the wastegate, then the engine doesn't make boost, and one can run with a more open throttle, which lowers pumping loss.
So if that boost energy could be made into a nominal amount of power, the car can use it.
Also, open the the options of where power would go. It can go to the battery, it can also go to an alternator- where the power can be put back INTO the FEAD system. Which can drive the rest of the accessories, or even put some energy back into the crank. Make a hp or 2, and it's a significant reduciton in how much energy the engine needs to make.
Any way to take the ~33% of the energy that's wasted down the exhaust is a good thing.
This got me thinking. Can you make a home brew one of these? Just put it down stream of the whole engine systems and have it work on its own all the time charging the battery? Could you do some sort of gear reduction or something to take the very high speeds that it would rotate at and step it down to a speed that an alternator can live at? and thus translate it in to torque that would provide the muscle to spin the alternator? I wonder if there is some sort of racing alternator that is very low drag? Maybe smaller ceramic magnet based units? instead of the standard car alternator?. Hummm I think I have in my basement all the parts and pieces needed to actually screw this together.. . . I would be really interested to see if a turbo hot side has the muscle to spin an alternator.
Ohya and if you can some how use the turbo to provide the power needed to circulate the needed lubrication bonus points. Keep it rear mounted and you eliminate the muffler and the exhaust gasses should be cool enough so you don't need additional cooling.
This only really makes sense if you have something like a KERS setup (if not a full hybrid powertrain). Without the battery and especially the motor, there's not much to do with the extra power this produces.
Well this is actually not a new thing but the fact that it's on F1 cars IS news to me. That's cool.
Keep it rear mounted and you eliminate the muffler and the exhaust gasses should be cool enough so you don't need additional cooling.
YOU FOOL! EVERYONE WHO DOESNT KNOW HOW A TURBO WORKS KNOWS IT WONT WORK WITHOUT THAT HEAT!!!!
alfadriver wrote: IF you could open the wastegate, then the engine doesn't make boost, and one can run with a more open throttle, which lowers pumping loss.
I agree with 95% of your post... but there isn't really any pumping loss on the intake side when the engine is making boost.
Didn't they do this in WW2 on a big ass bomber and use the exhaust to turn accessory drives for generators & air compressors? Exhaust Gas Recovery System. They used it to turn little turbines and power APUs or something.
Conquest351 wrote: Didn't they do this in WW2 on a big ass bomber and use the exhaust to turn accessory drives for generators & air compressors? Exhaust Gas Recovery System. They used it to turn little turbines and power APUs or something.
There was also a system that took mechanical power directly off the turbo and drove the crankshaft:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-compound_engine
there isn't really any pumping loss on the intake side when the engine is making boost.
No, because the pumping loss moves over to the exhaust side creating the pressure that drives the turbo. The turbo is not working off "free" energy.
Armitage wrote: Between the heat that's going to be poured into the electric section from the hot side and the tolerances required for that motor to operate at >100k RPM, I bet that won't be cheap. Still, that would be the perfect solution for a big turbo on the RX-7 :)
Modern brushless motor tech with high power rare earth magnets made cheap by investment from rc industry makes this possible. This isn't the old mattress inflator in the the intake gimmick I don't think.
Vigo wrote: Well this is actually not a new thing but the fact that it's on F1 cars IS news to me. That's cool.Keep it rear mounted and you eliminate the muffler and the exhaust gasses should be cool enough so you don't need additional cooling.YOU FOOL! EVERYONE WHO DOESNT KNOW HOW A TURBO WORKS KNOWS IT WONT WORK WITHOUT THAT HEAT!!!!
WARNING I AM THINKING AGAIN HERE
I was wondering if you could actually fill the bearing housing of the turbo in this application (rear mount) with a really good synthetic oil and seal it. Since you don't have any pressure from the compressor side you would not really have to worry about seals other than normal ware. Are there synthetic oils out there that are good enough to do this? I wonder if redline has something. Hummmm
ProDarwin wrote:alfadriver wrote: IF you could open the wastegate, then the engine doesn't make boost, and one can run with a more open throttle, which lowers pumping loss.I agree with 95% of your post... but there isn't really any pumping loss on the intake side when the engine is making boost.
Depends on how you look at it. When there is excess pressure/flow across the throttle, the throttle closes, which is a loss. As was pointed out, that extra pressure is the result of energy coming off of the exhaust. Since the throttle closes, a little more, that extra energy isn't needed, and is going to waste. Unless you are tinking of the boost at high throttles- which has little throttling losses. But under light loads, the turbo is still spinning, and does transfer energy from the exhaust into the intake.
So opening the wastegate eliminate that waste.
It's kind of a circular calculation, but it is being used as a way to make the engine run more efficient.
In this model, that energy that's taken out of the exhaust and put into the intake and then wasted, is actually taken out via electricity, and then fed back into the syste.
Are there synthetic oils out there that are good enough to do this?
I think the accumulation of heat is the main problem with that idea. If you ran a pump and ran it out through a cooler and back in, it would probably work. But then you're back where you started because that's basically what the engine does in a 'normal' install.
As for pumping losses, it is pretty much impossible to improve efficiency by using more throttle to minimize pumping losses unless you also have full fuel and ignition control so you can minimize the power the engine creates during a given situation by running it super lean. If you DO have that control, then it is possible.
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