Hybrid/electric vs gas discussion

Over the past bit everyone has been talking about the Volt, Leaf, Prius and about every other type of anti gas technology out there. Although there have been at length discussion of each vehicle on their merits, or lack there of, I wanted to bring up a point that was itself a point of controversy.

From building to scrap heap are hybrids and electric vehicles creating more pollution than a comparable ICE vehicles?

We have all heard the Prius worse than the Hummer story and the rebutles (if you haven't heard them, they are out there.) Lets compare something more reasonable. Say the Volt vs a Cruze or a Prius vs a Camry. Maybe a Versa vs a Leaf.

I am all for new technology. I believe the country needs it and the world needs it, but I am not digging my head in the sand and ignoring facts or being an Al Gore fan boy and giving him favors behind his mansion in Tennessee.

So let's have a serious debate on this.

With our current technology and direction are electric hybrids the answer or are they just the beginning to a sustainable solution?

Precious metals mining for batteries is far worse than ICE emissions. In fact, Edmunds just did an emissions test where leaf blowers were dozens to thousands of times dirtier than a freaking Ford Raptor (which was actually cleaner than the ambient air).

Real solutions will be limiting industrial and commercial emissions as well as small motor / off-road vehicles (motorcycles, ATV's, gokarts, jetski's, lawn equipment, boats, etc, etc). Cars are an insignificant slice of the pie now.

In reply to Javelin:

+1 about a million times. Everyone seems to keep piling on cars even though they've been "clean" for years. It's politics at work.

Which "solution" are you talking about?

There are two reasons the gov. pushes hybrids: A) Pollution B) Use less gasoline (also the reason CAFE standards were created)

There are two reasons to purchase a hybrid: A) Pollution B) Use less gasoline (therefore cheaper to operate)

So what are we aiming for? Less dependence on foreign oil? Cleaner air? Less total pollution?

Easily the most 'green' way to approach transportation is to buy used, efficient vehicles that are sized according to your needs.

For this reason alone, ICE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hybrid/electric

I don't think hybrids are a flash in the pan, but won't solve our problems. Hybrid sales have been on an even rise, with no expectations for the rise to get steeper. But by 2014, 70% of vehicles will have direct injection. That is where the big technology boom in automotive is happening. 300HP and 30-40MPG is a great start.

I would invest in Siemens or other manufacturers of the piezo chips needed to work the injectors. A lot less precious materials needed.

Taiden wrote: Easily the most 'green' way to approach transportation is to buy used, efficient vehicles that are sized according to your needs. For this reason alone, ICE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hybrid/electric

What about used efficient hybrid/electric vehicles? Priuses and Civic hybrids are getting down in the $5-7K range right now. I'm still kinda kicking myself for not picking one up instead of my current DD.

I buy ICE engines for the same reason I bought a house built in 1937; way more green despite the energy inefficiencies (which I can fix - both in a car and a house.)

As far as hybrids go, I've always detested the very idea. Its a buzzword. Its a car for people who failed physics and think they're saving the environment. The emissions from the manufacturing of the batteries is so toxic that they are made in 3rd-world countries without emissions laws, then shipped over on diesel boats that burn hundreds of gallons per mile (also in unregulated air), have a limited service life, and half the car is plastic which not only uses fossil fuels but also doesn't biodegrade.

Reduce, reuse, recycle. To me, that means buying an 87 Cutlass and dropping in a 3.0 CRD from a wrecked jeep and burning biodiesel, certainly NOT commissioning the construction of a new plastic, sulfuric, wasteful hybrid.

[/soapbox]

ProDarwin wrote:

Taiden wrote: Easily the most 'green' way to approach transportation is to buy used, efficient vehicles that are sized according to your needs. For this reason alone, ICE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hybrid/electric

What about used efficient hybrid/electric vehicles? Priuses and Civic hybrids are getting down in the $5-7K range right now. I'm still kinda kicking myself for not picking one up instead of my current DD.

when the transformer coolant tank gets a leak (and it will) and you realize that you now have to purchase one from the dealer at $1700, or when the batteries finally die and you have to strip the car down to a bare chassis and pay thousands (if not tens of thousands) for replacement batteries, you might be kicking yourself for not buying your current car.

curtis73 wrote: I buy ICE engines for the same reason I bought a house built in 1937; way more green despite the energy inefficiencies (which I can fix - both in a car and a house.) As far as hybrids go, I've always detested the very idea. Its a buzzword. Its a car for people who failed physics and think they're saving the environment. The emissions from the manufacturing of the batteries is so toxic that they are made in 3rd-world countries without emissions laws, then shipped over on diesel boats that burn hundreds of gallons per mile (also in unregulated air), have a limited service life, and half the car is plastic which not only uses fossil fuels but also doesn't biodegrade. Reduce, reuse, recycle. To me, that means buying an 87 Cutlass and dropping in a 3.0 CRD from a wrecked jeep and burning biodiesel, certainly NOT commissioning the construction of a new plastic, sulfuric, wasteful hybrid. [/soapbox]

Damn, you beat me to the soapbox.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of perfectly usable vehicles out there for daily driving, but nobody will buy them because they all think they're filthy. Whats worse, letting 100 thousand cars go back to the earth and buying an incredible filthy "hybrid" that probably doesn't even make up for the pollution created in making it, or buying, improving and using the old stuff until it can't be fixed anymore and repeating?

Cash for clunkers

LET THE RAMPAGE BEGIN!

In reply to Taiden:

Don't tempt me. I got banned from a couple of forums when that came out.

Taiden wrote: Cash for clunkers LET THE RAMPAGE BEGIN!

It was a very good way to cause a brief bump in sales...the enviromental benefits are not so clear. It also robbed us of some interesting drive train donors.

I am actually a fan of the hybrid/electric idea (especially if powered by a small diesel) for people who think they need a new car all the time. They are already going to waste a buttload of resources on a new car, so they may as well get something fuel efficient. I realize that we can achieve the same efficiency with smaller/lighter cars, but most of America is afraid of that idea...

It is good to see that so many GRMers think that reusing counts as a form of recycling/environmentalism. I plan to attend some earth day events when the datsun replica is done and expect the response there to be more mixed; It will be fun to see how they respond to an open exhaust and an inline six in a car with 100 percent post consumer recyled sheet metal for the body panels.

Joey, I'm glad that you're stirring things up.

Being environmentally conscious doesn't mean buying a Prius, wearing overalls, living in a shack, and using an outhouse.

It means being environmentally conscious.

And the funny thing is, although your datsun replica is the polar opposite of a prius, I bet the total environmental impact of your car and project is far less than the 'accepted' Prius.

When I get my Kadett back on the road this spring it will proudly sport a "44mpg" custom plate and I will smugly wave at least one finger at every Prius I drive past.

curtis73 wrote: when the transformer coolant tank gets a leak (and it will) and you realize that you now have to purchase one from the dealer at $1700, or when the batteries finally die and you have to strip the car down to a bare chassis and pay thousands (if not tens of thousands) for replacement batteries, you might be kicking yourself for not buying your current car.

I've never heard of a transformer coolant tank failing. Not to say it wont, just haven't heard of it. Everyone I've met with a Prius has had a rock solid reliable car even up over 200K miles. Same with Civic hybrids (with one exception - car was a lemon and failures were not in the hybrid system). Batteries are easily found semi-used (low mileage units from cars that were wrecked) from specialty junkyards for <$1000. They usually last well beyond 150k miles (they are warrantied that far in CA). Money saved due to operating costs would easily cover that at least once during my ownership.

I understand Hybrids may not be the greenest solution overall. I'm just surprised by the ignorance and overall hate of them on this board.

An in reference to the re-using argument... buying a used hybrid is buying a used car. Is that worse than buying an ICE used car?

Depends what the environmental impact is of the manufacture and disposal of another set of batteries as compared to no such thing on a purely ICE car.

Every situation has different variables and results, so there will be instances where the hybrid will win out. I just haven't thought of one yet.

ProDarwin wrote: An in reference to the re-using argument... buying a used hybrid is buying a used car. Is that worse than buying an ICE used car?

Yes, I guess. If it keeps it out of a landfill, then logically, yes. My problem is that I really dislike the idea. I think of it this way. Imagine a PETA member buying a used fur coat. The rationale is sound... they need a warm coat, and its too late to save that Mink anyway. I just can't support the manufacturing of a hybrid, therefore I wouldn't have one - new or used.

Or think of it this way.... a person who would only ever buy an American car shouldn't have any problem buying a used Kia. Its already been manufactured and the money stays here, but most won't.

The tank failures were limited to a modest range of two years (02 and 03 I think). There was a TSB concerning it and NTSB pushed hard for a recall but didn't get it.

And buying used (and potentially mostly spent) batteries for $1000 on a car with 200k? I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a car that might only be worth $1500.

Here is my point. The hybrid driveline itself is wasteful. Any time you convert states of energy, you lose a huge percentage of it (from a physics/engineering standpoint.) Their only real saving grace is the regenerative braking. Take that same Prius or Insight and replace the whole thing with a 1.3L diesel turbo. Your MPG will go from 50 to 70, the batteries never have to be produced or disposed of, the simplicity factor would make it WAY cheaper to maintain and repair, it could burn fuel that you make for nearly free in your garage and that came from existing bio-available carbon instead of digging up crude oil from miles below the earth and dumping it into the biosphere. THAT'S environmentally responsible to me.

Taiden wrote: Every situation has different variables and results, so there will be instances where the hybrid will win out. I just haven't thought of one yet.

Neither have I. When they first came out I was furious. It was the biggest piece of wool being pulled over the eyes of those who failed physics. The worst part is that the manufacturing costs are insanely high, but lobbyists convinced government that it was a good thing and they footed the bill for several years.

Somebody convinced the government to spend my tax dollars on snake oil and it pisses me off.

Even if 90% of the population bought used it wouldn't eliminate EVERY new car, and 100% of the population would NEVER buy used, it wouldn't dry up the new car market. It would merely bring manufacturing down to a more realistic level... Why shouldn't we use what we have first before buying more? After all, some of these self righteous Prius buying morons think they need a new car every 3 years to keep their social status elevated (or to make them selves feel better about being hypocritical). We had a Fiat Panda that got 45mpg on regular pump gas! No gimmicks, no hybrid badge, no "crap you dont need". Where is that in the US?

As far as plenty of great new features goes, admittedly there are great crash safety and performance upgrades every year but why do the manufacturers think I need a car that tries to be smarter than me? If I want the doors locked, I'll lock them. When I press the "window roll down" button, I really DO want the windows down. Our GPS has made my wife so complacent she cant find her way to the hair salon every three weeks without it. A Lexus that parks its self? Cars with radar so they can automatically apply brakes? Why not just do the damn driving for me?

The more the manufacturers load their new cars up with this automatic crap that does the thinking for us, the more complacent and stupid the general population becomes.

The problem with all this is that we're asking people to use intelligence to make reasonable decisions, and to avoid buying into the advertiser's new gimmics and hype... And face it, that just ain't gonna happen.

< /rant >

I'm really sorry, I just finished my second cup of coffee...

Does anybody have a good source for total typical Hybrid-vehicle production cost, (in terms of emissions)?

I.e. :

curtis73 wrote: The emissions from the manufacturing of the batteries is so toxic that they are made in 3rd-world countries without emissions laws, then shipped over on diesel boats that burn hundreds of gallons per mile (also in unregulated air), have a limited service life, and half the car is plastic which not only uses fossil fuels but also doesn't biodegrade.

I certainly believe it, (it makes perfect sense), but I'd like to see some solid data all the same.

ProDarwin wrote: I've never heard of a transformer coolant tank failing.

I have after an accident

If we want to evaluate the consumer side of emissions we need to focus on the homes and the like. But there aren't the push for green homes...yet.

Couple of things.

New cars will always be made- between 12-14M cars are permanently removed from the road annually in the US, and then add driver growth.

Second, vehicle emissions improve enough in the mid 90s to very much consider taking a non emissions car off the street. If the Datsun had fuel control and catalysts, then it would be more attractive than just using post use material. Although the GHG fanbois will overlook that if you have a veggie oil burner....

As for DI, well, it's not perfect, either. Can be made to be very good, though.

mguar wrote: I can't understand your hatred. Formula 1 for cripes sake uses regenerative braking and hybrid technology. Efficient cars are not a threat to those who choose not to go that route.. for every Prius there is a Corvette or Mustang.. For every Ford Focus Hybrid there is a Shelby GT 500 Mustang.

I think most of my beef lies with the misguided people who (as a general rule) tend to buy the cars (you know, the ones who get caught up in hype without doing thinking much about it) and not with the cars themselves, although I cant say I "like" the cars much either.

Regenerative braking and hybrid technology may increase efficiency when it comes to fuel consumption, (efficiency is extremely important in formula) but that's a very short term gain for the road going vehicles. The long term goal, I think, should be finding a clean burning, reusable alternative to gasoline.

When we look back, I think we'll view hybrid technology only as a bridge that helped us go to wherever we end up going.

To be fair, I am definitely biased against hybrids. I had to drive a customer's Prius up front one day, and it took me damn near 15 minutes to figure out how to turn the thing on and put it in drive.

And when I did, the steering felt like hell, the brakes felt like ass, the go pedal seemed to have zero effect on anything, and after that there isn't much left in a car to try to like.

Whereas my 89 si was hilarious fun to drive and got 43 mpg highway. It already existed in it's present form when I bought it, and well... the whole cost thing isn't really fair because it's old vs new but you get what I'm going for.

I am glad it exists as a way to push technology forward.