Hybrid/electric vs gas discussion

FlightService wrote: 65 MPG Ford Fiesta For those that think Hybrid is the answer to the fuel economy question.

Is the 65 US or Imperial gallons? That's a big load of the fuel economy difference between the US and UK fuel economy differences, right there. I wouldn't trust a newspaper jockey to realize that, given all of the other huge factual blunders seen on a regular basis. (cue "firearm identification guide")

Speaking with one of the Ford trainers, they are not planning to bring it to the US because by the time they'd get it clean enough, the fuel economy wasn't that much more than what they could do with a gasoline engine, cheaper.

I know that if I had a choice between 45mpg with a $4/gallon Diesel that cost more to purchase, or 40mpg with a base model car that runs on $3.20 gasoline, the choice would be crystal clear. And 40mpg mixed driving IS what manual transmission Fiestas are getting.

40mpg US is 48mpg UK, by the way.

The article said they weren't bringing it. Even if i was UK vs Imperial you are looking at 54 US mpg (based on your 40=48 conversion)

Still frickin awesome.

Either way the point is made that Hybrids are not the answer to less pollution or fuel economy but just a different product.

There are some people (and my situation is acutally one) where a plug in hybrid makes sense. I live 2.5 miles to work. My son's school is between the two. I come home for lunch and sometimes pick him up from school if his mom doesn't feel well. That puts me at 10 to 15 miles per day total driving. Almost all of it in the warm up cycle. Plug in Hybrids make sense for my living situation. A Leaf would actually work well. But 71% of American do double+ than that every day. (SOURCE: US Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics, Omnibus Household Survey.)

But I will just continue to purchase vehicles that make sense for my 80% useage cycle, or get lucky and find a good deal on an AWD SAV that gets 28mpg, will tow and haul 99% of the crap I need to.

In which case I reused, recycled, and conserved on a vehicle that is a 99% of my duty cycle.

CONSERVATION is a great thing. Find new and economical ways to use things that are already built

And for all the true hippie it has to be not american to be worth buying, Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid system from the Prius for us in their Hybrid cars.

So an extra person in both. Sounds wonderful.

More weight =/= better.

I'm wondering if you can easily match hyprid mpg by fiddling with the computer, gear ratios and other things on a newer car. To test this theory, I will need a new Mustang V6, 2.73 gears and some money, so get crackin for the sake of science!

FlightService wrote: And for all the true hippie it has to be not american to be worth buying, Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid system from the Prius for us in their Hybrid cars.

Well, Ford copied Toyota's system almost to the tee, then they were forced to pay Toyota for the rights.

Knurled wrote: The ship that brings a car over from Japan will produce more pollution than the car will over its projected life. That ship also burns only about 20 gallons of fuel per car. This isn't to say that the ship pollutes horribly, this is just a measure of *how clean cars really are*.

That may be true, but it is deceptive.

While the ship may pollute more than 1 car, it DOES NOT pollute more than the 6500 cars it is carrying.

Since it is not possible to ship a single car, it would be a more accurate comparison to compare it to the 6500 it is transporting.

Plus, your "statistic" makes no mention of whether it is referring to the life of the ship, or 1 ocean crossing, or other. Very misleading.

I should point out that I've driven a couple of hybrids and am still occasionally thinking about getting a 1st gen Insight as a pure commuter vehicle as it should get almost twice the mpg my Miata gets (but only a little better than the bike, which is the summer commuter). And I'm a geek so in general I do like to give that sort of technology the benefit of doubt. Plus I do think it's kinda cool technology.

However in my opinion the whole hybrid vehicle thing is almost exclusively a US phenomenon. Of course you can buy a Prius in Europe as well, but they're not that popular, simply because the alternative - a modern Diesel engine - is widely available and not that expensive compared to a hybrid. The European car manufacturers have a lot of experience cleaning up the emissions for Diesel cars, but I don't think they're able to meet CAFE standards by now unless you go for something like the Bluemotion Benzes.

One of my colleagues has the Ford Hybrid SUV and he's pretty happy with the fuel consumption. However most of the bigger SUVs in Europe (if available) are available with a Turbo Diesel engine so you'd end up getting the similar or better mileage. Heck, the Land Rover Discoveries that I seem to be unable to ignore completely are available with a Turbo Diesel in the UK that's more than adequate and gets over twice the mpg compared to the not-very-powerful gas V8 that's the only engine choice here.

mguar wrote: So you are suggesting that we stop all manufacturing of new cars?

Never once did I ever say or even imply that.

It's just important, if you are concerned about something, to know what it is you're concerned about.

For the record, I think hybrid/electric technology will be essential for the future, and any new technology goes through teething/expense problems. Every common and cheap technology we have today was, at one point, more expensive and cumbersome compared to the things it eventually replaced.

But it is NOT environmentally friendly in 2011.

FlightService wrote: The article said they weren't bringing it. Even if i was UK vs Imperial you are looking at 54 US mpg (based on your 40=48 conversion) Still frickin awesome.

Don't forget the part where fuel economy will suffer once they get it to meet US emissions regs. The Diesel Focus was supposedly only good for 35mpg mixed!

SVreX wrote: While the ship may pollute more than 1 car, it DOES NOT pollute more than the 6500 cars it is carrying.

Speaking per car.

If you spill a half-gallon of gasoline on the ground while filling your lawnmower, you've just polluted more than most new cars ever will over their whole lives.

New cars are clean, That can't be stressed enough. If they could make engines and catalysts that stayed hot for a long period after shutdown, they'd be zero emissions. And better believe that it's being worked on.

aussiesmg wrote: The Fusion gets an EPA 41 mpg on the highway, my Elantra gets 40mpg average, real world, every tank. That includes any inching along in traffic BTW. The Fusion cost is about $4000 more than my Elantra. My oil changes are at 7500 miles, about every 6 weeks. I live in a rural area and rarely see heavy traffic, maybe two or three times a year despite three or four trips a week into Columbus, Toledo, Dayton or even Cleveland. Can the Fusion fit a wheelchair in the trunk? This is a genuine question. My statement did not mention other drivers, I asked how a hybrid could be better for my situation.

Lets compare apples to apples:

Fusion Fuelly: 37.5 Elantra Fuelly: 29.9

Fusion EPA 41 city, 36 highway, 39 combined Elantra EPA 29 city, 40 highway, 33 combined

That said, I don't think people cross shop those two cars. The Elantra is closer in size to the Prius, which is EPA rated at 51 city, 48 highway, 50 combined, and has a Fuelly average of 47.9. Yes, 18mpg higher than the Elantra.

Now, since you claim some outrageous mileage from your Elantra, is there a point in you getting a Hybrid? No. probably not as the Prius starts at $22K and would take quite a while to pay off. However, I'm sure you can understand how a typical driver would be willing to pay a bit extra for a car that will average 18MPG higher? That translates to a $4500 savings in the first 100K miles assuming gas stays at its current price. As it goes up, the savings get larger and larger.

FWIW, a new Prius vs. a new Elantra @ 15K miles a year and using Fuelly mileage numbers (statistically average drivers), the cost of ownership for the Prius would be less after 4 years.

Cone_Junky wrote:

FlightService wrote: And for all the true hippie it has to be not american to be worth buying, Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid system from the Prius for us in their Hybrid cars.

Well, Ford copied Toyota's system almost to the tee, then they were forced to pay Toyota for the rights.

I read that they actually asked Toyota for system because when all this hit they were too far behind.

FlightService wrote:

Cone_Junky wrote:

FlightService wrote: And for all the true hippie it has to be not american to be worth buying, Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid system from the Prius for us in their Hybrid cars.

Well, Ford copied Toyota's system almost to the tee, then they were forced to pay Toyota for the rights.

I read that they actually asked Toyota for system because when all this hit they were too far behind.

Where do you all hear this stuff?

The Ford engineers came to the same technical conclusion, just after Toyota did. Since they got the patents first, royalties had to be paid.

No parts are the same.

Funny how the Fusion MKZ both are more efficient than the camry.

Knurled wrote:

SVreX wrote: While the ship may pollute more than 1 car, it DOES NOT pollute more than the 6500 cars it is carrying.

Speaking per car. If you spill a half-gallon of gasoline on the ground while filling your lawnmower, you've just polluted more than most new cars ever will over their whole lives. New cars are *clean*, That can't be stressed enough. If they could make engines and catalysts that stayed hot for a long period after shutdown, they'd be *zero* emissions. And better believe that it's being worked on.

Fascinating. So, if I spill a half gallon of gas while filling my new car it pollutes less than if I spill a half gallon while filling my lawn mower! Who'd have thunk it?

SVreX wrote:

Knurled wrote: The ship that brings a car over from Japan will produce more pollution than the car will over its projected life. That ship also burns only about 20 gallons of fuel per car. This isn't to say that the ship pollutes horribly, this is just a measure of *how clean cars really are*.

That may be true, but it is deceptive. While the ship may pollute more than 1 car, it DOES NOT pollute more than the 6500 cars it is carrying. Since it is not possible to ship a single car, it would be a more accurate comparison to compare it to the 6500 it is transporting. Plus, your "statistic" makes no mention of whether it is referring to the life of the ship, or 1 ocean crossing, or other. Very misleading.

Actually, the ship might.... I don't have easy link to the cert data, but I do know they are very dirty... Remind me in a week to check.

As for the "greatness" of diesels, the new euro standard will change the game a lot in 2014. Based on the big change coming for EuroVI, apparently the EU does not think the fuel economy is worth the emissions....

Not a PHEV, but...

working link

Sub 3000lb Prius Hatcback for under $19K, pretty good standard features, 53 city/46 highway/50 combined. With a 73hp Engine and a 60hp electric motor, it may be kinda fun to drive even.

I was changing the tail light (the whole unit thanks to a hit and run) in the Prius over the weekend so I had the back carpet out and could see the battery pack - it's the shape of a briefcase and maybe 1.5 times bigger. Pretty compact.

No I didn't take it out to weigh it, but the connectors seem pretty idiot proof should I have a few too many beers while in the garage and get antsy with the scales.

Here's a question though, Toyota and Nissan use air cooled battery packs while the Volt uses coolant for theirs (hence the fire problem) how does that effect weight since you'll need radiators and all that?

The Leaf is capable of an 80% charge in 30 minutes with a 480v system.

Interesting website: http://www.voltstats.net/

Chevy tracks the volt's performance through the Onstar system. It's now up to 363 voluntary users, and their averages seem to be in the ~120MPG range and 60MPGe.

In reply to mguar:

No idea but the info came straight from Nissan and suggests that liquid cooling isn't needed for fast charging.

alfadriver wrote:

FlightService wrote:

Cone_Junky wrote:

FlightService wrote: And for all the true hippie it has to be not american to be worth buying, Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid system from the Prius for us in their Hybrid cars.

Well, Ford copied Toyota's system almost to the tee, then they were forced to pay Toyota for the rights.

I read that they actually asked Toyota for system because when all this hit they were too far behind.

Where do you all hear this stuff? The Ford engineers came to the same technical conclusion, just after Toyota did. Since they got the patents first, royalties had to be paid. No parts are the same. Funny how the Fusion MKZ both are more efficient than the camry.

It was a discussed topic in my latest Hybrid Technology class. I really doubt Ford would pay a single penny to Toyota if their engineers came with it on their own.

alfadriver wrote:

FlightService wrote:

Cone_Junky wrote:

FlightService wrote: And for all the true hippie it has to be not american to be worth buying, Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid system from the Prius for us in their Hybrid cars.

Well, Ford copied Toyota's system almost to the tee, then they were forced to pay Toyota for the rights.

I read that they actually asked Toyota for system because when all this hit they were too far behind.

Where do you all hear this stuff? The Ford engineers came to the same technical conclusion, just after Toyota did. Since they got the patents first, royalties had to be paid. No parts are the same. Funny how the Fusion MKZ both are more efficient than the camry.

Business case study from Harvard

The "Prius" is 15 years old and was a product of the previous spike in gasoline prices. They are nearing the end of their product life cycle. Big berkeleying deal. The engineering work that has gone on in the last 15 years on diesel and gasoline engines is absolutely amazing. We can now buy 100 hp per liter without a second thought, drive 4500 lb luxo barges and get 30 mpg, and damn near everything that costs more that 22k runs the quarter in 14 seconds or less. This is an AMAZING time for gear heads. The used car market is awash with bargain performance. Hybrids helped push the game forward. EVIL government regulation helped push the ball forward. Technology ROCKS!!!! What are you all bitching about? How often do you follow some puking stink bomb these days? Poor people are driving Civics that still work. Where are the big black oil stripes in the middle of the road? Things are getting better. Really. It's O.K.

Cone_Junky wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

FlightService wrote:

Cone_Junky wrote:

FlightService wrote: And for all the true hippie it has to be not american to be worth buying, Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid system from the Prius for us in their Hybrid cars.

Well, Ford copied Toyota's system almost to the tee, then they were forced to pay Toyota for the rights.

I read that they actually asked Toyota for system because when all this hit they were too far behind.

Where do you all hear this stuff? The Ford engineers came to the same technical conclusion, just after Toyota did. Since they got the patents first, royalties had to be paid. No parts are the same. Funny how the Fusion MKZ both are more efficient than the camry.

It was a discussed topic in my latest Hybrid Technology class. I really doubt Ford would pay a single penny to Toyota if their engineers came with it on their own.

never heard of a patent? Toyota patened the ideas before Ford did, and Ford had to pay Toyota a license fee to use those ideas.

You like the WB O2 sensors? The Ford Patent on those expired just a few years ago- Bosch and NTK payed for those. Heck, I have patents that Bosch pays for, since my group thought of it 6 months earlier than they did.

Your Hybrid Tech class needs to brush up on what really happened. The only "shared" aspect to the two companies is that the batteries come from the same supplier, currently. Should change pretty soon, once a battery plant in West Michigan is up and running.

FlightService wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

FlightService wrote:

Cone_Junky wrote:

FlightService wrote: And for all the true hippie it has to be not american to be worth buying, Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid system from the Prius for us in their Hybrid cars.

Well, Ford copied Toyota's system almost to the tee, then they were forced to pay Toyota for the rights.

I read that they actually asked Toyota for system because when all this hit they were too far behind.

Where do you all hear this stuff? The Ford engineers came to the same technical conclusion, just after Toyota did. Since they got the patents first, royalties had to be paid. No parts are the same. Funny how the Fusion MKZ both are more efficient than the camry.

Business case study from Harvard

Which part, the fact that Ford licenses the technology from Toyota? Or the opinion that Ford aksed Toyota for the solution?

It's true that a license is paid. Other than that, though. There's also a lot of news in the last year where Toyota and Ford have reached a technology sharing agreement. But that doesn't mean at all that hybrid technology wasn't developed independantly, just coming to the same solution.