Hyperfest 2013 SpecE30 crash video / both perspectives

And yeah. White car was driving race line. Red car was marching to a "different" drummer.

White FTW.

OR:

Curmudgeon, Toyman, anyone I've raced against in Forza will attest that I'm a total pushover on track. I'll back off to avoid contact, even if it's "my line."

Driver of the red car was either deliberately being a dick, or totally clueless. Either way, he owes driver of white car a beer and an apology.

Red car needs better mirrors or somthing

I race Spec E30, on this track, with those guys. I don't know either of the participants personally, as they are usually far up the starting grid from me. It's been a lot of fun reading the views of those outside of our little race group.

The white car has filed an appeal with NASA. The red car driver is adamant that the white car was at fault. Not knowing either guy any more than the other, I made my own judgement from watching the video. The rules of overtaking and wheel-to-door are what they are, but in this instance I think a certain level of self-preservation common sense should also be factored in. IMO the white car is less at fault; he has the 'proper' line through there, his hands never moved off center on the wheel and the red car moves over with some rule book expectation that the real estate is his. I'll let the officials evaluate all this and will be interested in the final ruling.

For myself, if I were the white car, I probably would have lifted a bit and given the red car the slot simply because going into the chute is not a place I want to risk what happened. But then, that is why my best finish is 7th. Remember, what you're watching is the top five or so qualifiers...racing at the front is far different than racing like you can't afford a new car (me, and those of us in the back half). The bumping and what appears to be wild driving is actually the norm for up there and I can tell you those guys know exactly what they are doing. It may look random, but it's not. That's 10/10ths driving, and actual incidents such as this one are amazingly rare. My first few race starts were some of the most terrifying experiences I've had in a car, but you learn that most everyone around you is doing the same thing, and we all make it work. Most every incident I've seen that involves a badly wrecked car was either a) a single driver incident or b) caused by someone not even racing in the class (the less I say about 944 drivers, the better).

Though fault is in dispute on this one, and the red car driver has been fairly vocal about his opinion, there has been zero 'name calling' between the two involved (at least in public forums) and the balance of the racers have been using this incident as an analytical tool more than anything else. My Mid-Atlantic guys are some of the most respectful people I've encountered, and I have no worries racing against any of them.

In the video from the white car you can see the driver turning right at the 0:21 mark. Crash is at 0:23. The white car does straighten up before the hit and then the red car comes over. I think they were both trying to lean on each other.

moerdogg wrote: So basically "You and your pile of scrap metal can occupy the moral high ground"

One for the "Say What?" page...

Those videos convinced me that I never want to race against those guys. Speaking from a perspective of 43 years road racing experience, I saw a lot of questionable driving. In my opinion the driver of he red car screwed up and paid the price. I don't know how he could have thought that move could be made safely. Simple rules of physics say 2 objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. JM$.02

poopshovel wrote: Driver of the red car was either deliberately being a dick, or totally clueless. Either way, he owes driver of white car a beer and an apology.

holy crap i totally agree with you.

the white car was a beige camry and the red car was a giant escalade with a soccer mom texting and driving saying "wtf is a mirror? i'm putting my truck right here.... oh E36 M3 you hit me you stupid camry driver"

I get the impression that the red car was out there racing to the rulebook instead of racing the other cars. He knew full well where the other car was, but had some imaginary line on his car that the other driver didn't pass yet and per the rulebook, so he felt justified in cutting over.

He's "that guy" who can quote the rulebook chapter and verse and would rather whine about every little thing instead of going out and racing hard. You saw how shiny his car was, probably spent more time waxing his E30 than tuning it!

I think the two different camera locations in the cars don't help give us a "perfect" look at what is going on. I think both have some blame, but if you go back and look at the white car's video, while the red car was starting to come over, it looks like just before impact the driver of the white car jerks his steering wheel a bit to the right. If I'm right about the timing, it looks like a classic PIT maneuver. Don't just watch the wheel, listen to the engine sounds right before and after the wheel gets turned. I think at that point a collision was inevitable unless the white car backed down, but I think he made it worse.

Another vote for the white car here. I think he was driving the line and the red car was being a dick. After the crash I think the red car realized he had a possible 'legalese' get out of jail free. He should just man up and admit rules or not, he's in the wrong.

Another point though. When I was racing, admitidly at the back of the grid in I.T. I just don't recall that leval of moving, chopping and bumping. Maybe it would look different if I'd had a GoPro 15 years ago, but I doubt it.

In reply to eastsidemav:

I disagree, I think what we saw as a "wheel jerk" was the Red fender hitting the WHITE passenger front tire, pulling the white care over. In order for an eighth of a wheel turn, that fast, to have produced enough force to induce the resulting punt, wouldve required Popeye the sailor man to be driving an E30 with a .5:1 steering box, powered by the steering pump off a Mack truck...Mere mortals in de-powered steering rack cars just dont have the arm strength to punt a car with a flick of the wrist, regardless of speed.

If the White car driver had indeed intended to punt the red car, you wouldve seen the white driver brace his body, lean into the wheel, and throw a big, noticeable, half rotation wheel jerk with obvious movements and deliberate force. I just didnt see that.

This seems to be a good argument between written rules and the real world. Either car could have avoided the contact with no trouble at all, each costing less than a tenth on their respective lap times.

Grow a berkeleying brain.

pinchvalve wrote: I get the impression that the red car was out there racing to the rulebook instead of racing the other cars. He knew full well where the other car was, but had some imaginary line on his car that the other driver didn't pass yet and per the rulebook, so he felt justified in cutting over. He's "that guy" who can quote the rulebook chapter and verse and would rather whine about every little thing instead of going out and racing hard. You saw how shiny his car was, probably spent more time waxing his E30 than tuning it!

This is why Monday armchair quarterbacking is retarded. You don't know the gentleman with the red vehicle. He is a front runner and a very good person. Why he is probably more than usually upset about losing his car, was this was a fresh build of only 2 events.... far from a waxer and whiner.

Both gentleman in this incident are at fault. Red car for trying to pinch but not realizing when too close (perfectly legal), and white car for not having position but sticking with his line. It is up to the person passing to get around. If you are a racer that let's anyone just "pass" because they are faster, then good luck at anything more than your local regions.

This is a racing incident, where both gentleman were too stubborn wanting the "line" which neither had. They should have both compromised. If you notice someone not moving over when you are pinching them, don't keep pushing the issue.

Racecraft anyone??

In reply to D_Eclipse9916:

IMO, it is still a ballsy way to drive a fresh build. Both of them appeared to blow the corner (I'm not familar with the track), the dude in the red car should've conceded as he appeared to be way out in the gray but chose to cut back across. The guy in white car appears to have missed the opportunity to capitalize but chose push for a pass . . . and asshattery occurs.

I think I'll stick to AutoX and DEs

Yes, I know there are guys trying to be the DE champ for the weekend and I keep my distance

What's interesting is that both of these gentlemen have raced against each other previously. Maybe red had an expectation from earlier experiences that white would concede if he leaned into him.

From two limited seasons running SpecRX7 as kind of a slowest-of-the-fast-guys driver, I was always surprised how many people were happy to put me in a lift-or-hit-him situation. A struggling pro was a friend-of-a-friend (quite good, couldn't bring much money to the table). He told me I should simply hit people like that and they would stop doing it. Sigh.

mfennell wrote: From two limited seasons running SpecRX7 as kind of a slowest-of-the-fast-guys driver, I was always surprised how many people were happy to put me in a lift-or-hit-him situation. A struggling pro was a friend-of-a-friend (quite good, couldn't bring much money to the table). He told me I should simply hit people like that and they would stop doing it. Sigh.

That is berkeleying stupid . . . IMO. Hit the guy so he would stop being a douche on the track

These decisions need to be made about 10 times every lap on a racetrack in LeChump.

I think some of these drivers should do a race or two and learn how to avoid these circumstances (or learn to deal with them). Once you have lots of practice, you can avoid these situations while loosing minimal time on track (.2 or .3 seconds).

Rob R.

I watched the three available laps again and at that spot on the track the red car takes the same line over to the apex of kink on the left all three times, including the lap resulting in the exiting, controversial, and expensive incident. I do think he was racing to the rules instead of physics, but the consistency of line (in this section anyway) is worth noting.

"Red car was racing to the rules instead of physics" is the best way to sum up what happened here.

Is this one of those unintended consequences things, where the rule-writing is concerned?

That is, they wrote in this fairly specific rule about at what point of overlap the trailing car becomes the leading car's concern. The flipside is that the lead car now only has to get his butt ahead of the trailing car's front wheel, and now he gets the whole track and isn't compelled to leave any pavement for the trailing car. Pretending that the trailing car vanishes (or is compelled to make itself vanish) at that instant seems awkward at best...

I'm curious about what the rules say about this sort of thing (racing room, right to choice of line) but outside this particular rule.

The sad part is that this should just be a racing incident. It is the risk we take going on track.

ransom wrote: Is this one of those unintended consequences things, where the rule-writing is concerned? That is, they wrote in this fairly specific rule about at what point of overlap the trailing car becomes the leading car's concern. The flipside is that the lead car now only has to get his butt ahead of the trailing car's front wheel, and now he gets the whole track and isn't compelled to leave any pavement for the trailing car. Pretending that the trailing car vanishes (or is compelled to make itself vanish) at that instant seems awkward at best... I'm curious about what the rules say about this sort of thing (racing room, right to choice of line) but outside this particular rule.

That was my general disagreement, even with "citing the rule". I don't think that was ever the "intent" of the rule. I understand it in the context that one shouldn't dive bomb on a corner when they don't have room to pass. The flipside is exactly as you say... go door to door through a corner, then coming out of a corner, drag race down the straight. As soon as the car next to you is less than 1/2 a car next to you, you can run them off the track? That doesn't make sense either.

I think the part that is so off putting to me about the whole thing is the original video posters attitude and rule citing (giving off a serious arrogant prick demeanor) when they were more or less at fault of driving into the other car.

Lastly, and getting slightly off topic... is the kink a corner? I could see the rule applying if the white car left his nose in heading into the corner at the bottom of the hill, but to me that drag race heading down the straight through the kink should be allowed side by side at full throttle... i.e. the white car shouldn't have to lift or brake going down the straight to allow the other car to take his line of choice, as it's more or less setting up optimally for the corner at the bottom of the hill, not the kink itself as a corner (if that makes any sense).

poopshovel wrote: OR: Curmudgeon, Toyman, anyone I've raced against in Forza will attest that I'm a total pushover on track. I'll back off to avoid contact, even if it's "my line." Driver of the red car was either deliberately being a dick, or totally clueless. Either way, he owes driver of white car a beer and an apology.

I never finished this thought...while when in doubt, I'll back out of the throttle to avoid contact, I don't think I would've done it there. And that's coming from the guy who's first goal is not "win," but "have fun, and don't wad anybody's E36 M3 up."

I had pretty much the EXACT thing happen at LeMons...and wasn't flagged, thank goodness. I backed off the throttle a little when I knew that contact was impending, but unfortunately, that put me in BETTER position to spin him. No big "earth shattering kaboom," he just rolled off the front bumper and was gone. That was the first year we won. Could've cost us the race!

xflowgolf wrote: I think the part that is so off putting to me about the whole thing is the original video posters attitude and rule citing (giving off a serious arrogant prick demeanor)

I am glad I wasn't the only one to have gotten this impression, reminded me of the guy with the m3 ltw at the last bmwcca autox event I attended.....cried foul because he "Couldn't have been beaten by a 4cyl" (oddly enough, an E30 M3 beat us)

poopshovel wrote: I don't think I would've done it there. And that's coming from the guy who's first goal is not "win," but "have fun, and don't wad anybody's E36 M3 up."

+1 here